One City Saved $5M by Routing School Buses with an Algorithm • Hacker News Board

Re: One City Saved $5M by Routing School Buses with an Algorithm

#111

Post by School-Cotton » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 1:42 PM UTC

poooogles wrote: post #53

mattlutze wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boston is at 42.3601 N longitude, which is actually pretty far south-ish compared to Germany. For comparison, Munich, Germany is 48.1351° N, Barcelona, Spain is 41.3851° N

Longitude in itself doesn't dictate weather. Labrador is the same longitude as London but we don't have similar climates. Köppen climate classification is probably the best indicator of where else is similar; which comes out as the same as most of northern Europe [1]. 1. https://www.weatherbase.com/weather/weather-summary.php3?s=9...

You mean latitude.

Re: One City Saved $5M by Routing School Buses with an Algorithm

#112

Post by seltzered_ » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 1:52 PM UTC

“After it was unveiled parents loudly objected to the proposal. Less than a month later, the district repealed the proposed new school start times. As Dimitris Bertsimas, a professor who led the MIT team, pointed out in a presentation about the solution, those who favored the status quo had the most to lose. “When your kids are affected negatively, it is hard to see the big picture,” he said.”

Joi Ito wrote on this https://joi.ito.com/weblog/2018/12/05/what-the-boston-school... :

“In very polite email, they told me that I didn’t have the whole story.

Kade and I met later that month with Arthur, Sebastien, and their adviser, MIT professor Dimitris Bertsimas. One of the first things they showed us was a photo of the parents who had protested against the schedules devised by the algorithm. Nearly all of them were white. The majority of families in the Boston school system are not white. White families represent only about 15 percent the public school population in the city. Clearly something was off.”

“Optimizing the algorithm for greater “equity" also meant many of the planned changes were "biased" against families with privilege. My view is that the fact that an algorithm was making decisions also upset people. And the families who were happy with the new schedule probably didn’t pay as much attention. The families who were upset marched on City Hall in an effort to overturn the planned changes.”

Re: One City Saved $5M by Routing School Buses with an Algorithm

#113

Post by pnutjam » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 1:54 PM UTC

sailfast wrote: post #107

mattlondon wrote: post #78

Interesting - so is it "a thing" in the US that the city runs a dedicated bus service for all schools/students? Quite a surprise for me considering how poor people say public transport is in general in the US? In the UK some schools run their own bus things (in the same way that Goolge, Facebook et al do in San Francisco), but most of the other schools just get by with the public buses. There is often some coordinati…

Yes. Our population densities are lower, school distances are often not walkable reasonably, and schools being public they want to ensure that their students are not impeded from getting to the classroom for any factors related to logistics, income, etc. Often times these are part-time positions. Set block of hours twice a day. Drivers can take on additional duties or other jobs. The buses themselves are either owned…

Indiana had a school district on the south side of Indianapolis that tried to stop busing students (https://www.governing.com/topics/education/gov-indiana-schoo...). It was a mess, and frankly due to the irresponsible way the state handles funding schools. Certain districts around the Indianapolis area, refuse to approve tax referendums for their schools, while others have voters that are happy to fund education. It's unsustainable long term.

Re: One City Saved $5M by Routing School Buses with an Algorithm

#114

Post by pnutjam » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 1:57 PM UTC

GarrisonPrime wrote: post #108

jefftk wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most US cities and towns have minimal public transit that wouldn't be anywhere near sufficient for getting kids to and from school, so they run school buses instead. In some places with good public transit, like Somerville MA where I live, the city doesn't run school buses and people walk or take general purpose public transit, but that's very unusual here. It's the same deal as the tech shuttles: in places where pub…

My father was a school bus driver. The pickup and drop off routes were often 3 hours each, as they were mandated by local law to provide service to the whole country. Kindergarten is just half a day in many places, so the middle of the day would be another 3 hours to shift those around. There were also many field trips, sporting events, and other miscellaneous calls for transport throughout the day and into the eveni…

All the districts in my area are begging for school bus drivers. The pay is going up and some are offering full time benefits for driving part time. I've also seen them offering to split the morning / afternoon shift and paying teachers extra to drive buses instead of coach after school sports.

Re: One City Saved $5M by Routing School Buses with an Algorithm

#115

Post by pnutjam » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 1:58 PM UTC

gmadsen wrote: post #102

ikeyany wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're usually part-timers or neighborhood parents volunteering.

never heard of that. At least in California there are strict requirements and qualifications to be able to transport children on a school bus

Driving a school bus requires a CDL in every state.

Re: One City Saved $5M by Routing School Buses with an Algorithm

#116

Post by maxerickson » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 2:00 PM UTC

mattlondon wrote: post #78

Interesting - so is it "a thing" in the US that the city runs a dedicated bus service for all schools/students? Quite a surprise for me considering how poor people say public transport is in general in the US? In the UK some schools run their own bus things (in the same way that Goolge, Facebook et al do in San Francisco), but most of the other schools just get by with the public buses. There is often some coordinati…

The school district is usually a distinct entity with direct taxpayer support. The buses typically only serve students.

Here, due to decreased enrollment and building closures, they pick up students at their front door.

The drivers are mostly paid for just the hours they are driving, the buses sit idle except for things like out of town athletic events (where they transport the participants).

Re: One City Saved $5M by Routing School Buses with an Algorithm

#117

Post by bb611 » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 2:01 PM UTC

jefftk wrote: post #90

mattlondon wrote: post #78

Interesting - so is it "a thing" in the US that the city runs a dedicated bus service for all schools/students? Quite a surprise for me considering how poor people say public transport is in general in the US? In the UK some schools run their own bus things (in the same way that Goolge, Facebook et al do in San Francisco), but most of the other schools just get by with the public buses. There is often some coordinati…

Most US cities and towns have minimal public transit that wouldn't be anywhere near sufficient for getting kids to and from school, so they run school buses instead. In some places with good public transit, like Somerville MA where I live, the city doesn't run school buses and people walk or take general purpose public transit, but that's very unusual here. It's the same deal as the tech shuttles: in places where pub…

> in places where public transit is good (NYC, Chicago, Boston)

The Boston one is a real giggle. At best, public transit in Boston is no better than the Bay Area, and on average is much worse.

The real reason for not running shuttles in these locations is office size. The Bay Area offices where shuttles are run have 10-100x the employees these other locations have.

Re: One City Saved $5M by Routing School Buses with an Algorithm

#118

Post by lonelappde » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 2:05 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #85

magashna wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snow is fine, but Boston will get 3 feet of snow, then an hour of freezing rain, and the next day it will be 45F. Winter is chaos

And that situation would literally just be business as usual in somewhere like Bangor or Buffalo. In Boston it's an excuse for half the city to call out of work and the MBTA to run trains "whenever we get around to it".

In Bangor or Buffalo there is very little "business as usual". Boston is far more dense and optimized with less slack in the system.

I bet that the activity in Boston when it is "shut down" due to weather is still busier than an average day in Bangor or Buffalo.

Re: One City Saved $5M by Routing School Buses with an Algorithm

#119

Post by dec0dedab0de » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 2:15 PM UTC

mattlondon wrote: post #78

Interesting - so is it "a thing" in the US that the city runs a dedicated bus service for all schools/students? Quite a surprise for me considering how poor people say public transport is in general in the US? In the UK some schools run their own bus things (in the same way that Goolge, Facebook et al do in San Francisco), but most of the other schools just get by with the public buses. There is often some coordinati…

Interesting - so is it "a thing" in the US that the city runs a dedicated bus service for all schools/students? Quite a surprise for me considering how poor people say public transport is in general in the US?

It's actually a thing because our public transport is so poor. Plus there are special laws for school buses to protect children. When a school bus picks up a child it is illegal to pass it on either side of the road.

However in some places students do take public transportation. For example here is the pricing for school districts to use SEPTA, which is the public transportation in and around Philadelphia

https://www.septa.org/fares/discount/students.html

Re: One City Saved $5M by Routing School Buses with an Algorithm

#120

Post by Bluestrike2 » Tue, Aug 13, 2019, 2:18 PM UTC

mattlondon wrote: post #78

Interesting - so is it "a thing" in the US that the city runs a dedicated bus service for all schools/students? Quite a surprise for me considering how poor people say public transport is in general in the US? In the UK some schools run their own bus things (in the same way that Goolge, Facebook et al do in San Francisco), but most of the other schools just get by with the public buses. There is often some coordinati…

Generally speaking, US school systems consist of separate elementary, middle school/junior high, and (senior) high schools with staggered start and end times for the school day to accommodate buses. For example, back in high school I think the actual school day started around 7am or maybe 7:15am or so. I'd catch the bus at around ~6:30am as I lived towards the end of my bus route; some kids would be up earlier. The buses would drop off their charges with a bit of time to spare and head out again for the next schools (in order: high school, middle school(s), and elementary school(s)). At the end of the day, the buses would line up around the school (again, for my district, maybe 15-20 minutes before the final bell and with two 'flights' of buses, IIRC), load up the kids, and head out on their route in reverse before repeating at the next schools.

It's not really an example of a functioning public transport system; it certainly works, but only in a very limited and specific context and without any flexibility. If a kid misses the bus either in the morning or after school (which can happen often), they're going to be waiting for a ride home from a family member. After-school programs required the same. And if you're in a rural community? The bus rides are longer, and you're waking up even earlier. But for a lot of suburban communities, there's no real alternative. If they have a bus system, it's probably for commuters and goes from specified stops (often from large "Park and Ride" lots) to the nearest city.

In that sense, there often isn't a public bus to put kids on in much of the US. Assuming, of course, that parents would be willing to do so. Back in 2008, a writer wrote about letting her 9-year-old ride the bus and subway to school alone.[0] There was a ton of public outcry, and she was labeled "America's worst mom" and suggested it was equivalent to child abuse. But that's a different issue altogether.

0. http://nysun.com/opinion/why-i-let-my-9-year-old-ride-subway...