Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders • Hacker News Board

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#111

Post by vixen99 » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 6:58 PM UTC

Legogris wrote: post #85

cojxd wrote: post #4

>The Dream of Open Borders Is Real—in the High Arctic For whom is open borders a dream?

I've formed a firm opinion that nation states with borders restricting people's movements and economical freedom based geographical citizenship is a leftover 20th century concept that we need to move overcome. Grew up in Europe and I see no reason why others shouldn't have the freedom of movement that I have, practical consequences aside. In my book it is (or should be) a fundamental right. It's more than just travel…

Which do you want, a cradle to grave welfare system or open borders for all comers? You can't have both. Huge numbers of people are, for financial reasons, utterly dependent on welfare - they don't have the privilege of choosing not using it. Someone has to pay for it and for example, in the UK 50% of the population won't be paying for that in terms of income tax at all.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#112

Post by _-___________-_ » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 6:59 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #37

mindthegap wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me: I grew up in Europe in times where the wall came down in Germany, a shared currency was established (Euro) and all European borders within Europe where suddenly passable without passport, visa checks, money exchange, someone judging you, etc.. Of course this caused other problems to solve, but the general feeling of freedom and being able to go some other country and even being able to live and work there was…

Have you been to other European countries before Schengen? I keep hearing how much easier it is now that you don't need your passport for travelling in Europe. I've traveled quite a bit before Schengen and the Euro went into effect, and I've never spent more than five minutes at a European border, and rarely more than five minutes exchanging currency. Granted, it's easier to know that they are robbing you at some tou…

Multi-hour delays at European borders were not unusual before, and persist at the external land borders of the Schengen area.

The common currency is valuable for more than just tourism purposes. A business in one country can much more easily trade with businesses in other countries if it doesn't have to deal with currency risk and the resultant necessary hedging, and if the business is selling services to consumers the single currency allows them to compete with businesses across the whole Eurozone on a level playing field. That's just considering currency; the single market is of course a much broader concept.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#113

Post by diminoten » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 7:00 PM UTC

mieseratte wrote: post #105

diminoten wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor Americans are not suffering because of immigration, undocumented or otherwise. Undocumented immigration does not suppress wages. Undocumented immigrants would be able to climb out of poverty if they weren't being persecuted by the federal government, so the fact that they can't use services they pay for is a problem, not a solution, as these services are intended to push people up and out of poverty (to the exte…

> Undocumented immigration does not suppress wages. They can and do. > And yes, you did actually say you prefer American people over not Americans I would appreciate it if you did not place words in my mouth which I have not said. > Trying to cherry pick statistics won't get that true reason out there so maybe just say it. Because I've witnessed first hand the problems of illegal immigration. I grew up in a community…

I'm seriously not trying to take any high ground, this is an entirely practical problem, he will literally ban me if I go too far, he's said as much a dozen times in my 10 years on this site.

Totally not a high ground thing, I just don't want to get banned is all!

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#114

Post by _-___________-_ » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 7:02 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #79

gattilorenz wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's for traveling, and the same currency is quite nice, especially when visiting multiple places in one trip. But the possibility of moving permanently (or to study at the university) to another country without needing a visa, well, that 's a game changer. Not to mention the agreements between European countries (e.g. If you move, there's no need to change your driving license)

> But the possibility of moving permanently (or to study at the university) to another country without needing a visa, well, that's a game changer. Is it though? I mean it's sure helpful if that's what you want to do, but it's not like that was impossible before. Given that relatively few people make use of it (relative to the population) it seems to be a small win, easing the bureaucratic process for a small number…

> Given that relatively few people make use of it (relative to the population)

[citation needed]

There are vast numbers of cross-border workers and internal (to the EU) migrants. I don't have numbers, but I really think that statement is misleading.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#115

Post by mieseratte » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 7:06 PM UTC

diminoten wrote: post #113

mieseratte wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Undocumented immigration does not suppress wages. They can and do. > And yes, you did actually say you prefer American people over not Americans I would appreciate it if you did not place words in my mouth which I have not said. > Trying to cherry pick statistics won't get that true reason out there so maybe just say it. Because I've witnessed first hand the problems of illegal immigration. I grew up in a community…

I'm seriously not trying to take any high ground, this is an entirely practical problem, he will literally ban me if I go too far, he's said as much a dozen times in my 10 years on this site. Totally not a high ground thing, I just don't want to get banned is all!

> so I'm going to stop replying.

> he will literally ban me if I go too far, he's said as much a dozen times in my 10 years on this site.

Regrettably, it would appear you haven't learned the lesson dang is trying to impart. I hope for the sake of your tenure that you one day find your inner peace.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#116

Post by bobthepanda » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 7:06 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #76

triceratops wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> New York (second poorest in the US) On what basis? It ranks 15th for median household income.

> > New York (second poorest in the US) > On what basis? Probably the same basis by which California is the poorest: statewide cost-of-living adjusted poverty line. There's a number of ways this measure is potebtially misleading; for instance, both New York and California are diverse states where the local cost of living varies considerably, and the numbers for any CoL adjusted measure would look very different if in…

Yeah, when it comes to New York, CoL, income, etc. vary widely; Albany, Buffalo, Binghamton, and NYC are all incredibly different. And as far as I know county level CoL isn't so great either, depending on how big your county is; even in New York, Huntington and Riverhead have vastly different local economies (to the point where there are occasionally calls to split Suffolk County in two), to say nothing of massive counties like King County, WA.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#117

Post by gambiting » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 7:08 PM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #53

lm28469 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same with EU, people seems to take it for granted but every time I think about it I find it amazing that it works as well as it does and how good it is.

It was used as an argument for Brexit in our referendum. I'm not sure that was the real reason for the agitators though.

Which was dumb then and still is - UK was never part of the Schengen agreement and has full control of its borders, it can stop anyone from entering as it pleases.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#118

Post by HillaryBriss » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 7:08 PM UTC

cojxd wrote: post #4

>The Dream of Open Borders Is Real—in the High Arctic For whom is open borders a dream?

I want open borders in every country which provides free government health care so that millions of retired Americans would be able to afford to move away from America. Most of America's health care dollars pay for late in life care so this would save American insurance providers and hospitals significant amounts of money. And a lot of American retirees would be able to realize their dreams of living out their retirements abroad. It would be a win-win.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#119

Post by dmihal » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 7:11 PM UTC

sdfjkl wrote: post #87

Nonsense. The airport has no need of additional procedures because it is gatewayed by Norway (it's not an international airport). If you arrive there by boat, things look well different: > Visiting yachts must obtain a cruising permit before arrival and make arrangements for special insurance to cover the possible cost of a search and rescue operation. Also compulsory is having a gun to protect the crew from possible…

It is an international airport, when you fly from Oslo, you go through immigration and exit the Schengen area.

While the visa requirement of transiting through Norway probably limits most visitors, the article does mention there are charter flights from Moscow every other month that avoids this restriction.

Re: Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders

#120

Post by snowwrestler » Thu, Aug 08, 2019, 7:12 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #44

snowwrestler wrote: post #35

I think the degree to which open borders are a reality within the U.S. is under-appreciated. As a reminder, U.S. states are sovereign entities with their own criminal laws, tax regimes, educational systems, property and contract rights, civil rights, economic growth, industries, natural resources, etc. In some cases their laws are pre-empted by U.S. federal law, but there remains quite a bit of diversity. Despite thi…

You dramatically overestimate how much of an economic difference there is between MD and WV: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vwpy8_glsgc/Vi5llZ9ZILI/AAAAAAAAI... . Adjusting for purchasing power, the difference in median income is just 10%. It’s like the difference between Belgium and Australia. On the flip side, there is actually quite a difference between states like New York (second poorest in the US) and Virginia. And…

I don't think I estimated the size of difference at all. Are you suggesting that there is a cutoff below which differences in income don't affect where people decide to live? Is the difference between NY to VA above or below that cutoff?

I guess my main point is that we take this freedom for granted in the U.S. and generally folks don't examine it, or consider it to be good, or consider it not bad enough to be worth changing. I can tell you that there is zero public concern in VA about economic migrants from NY state.