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Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

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Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#111

Post by zaksoup »

jart wrote: post #81
zaksoup wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> democratic states are consistently better than non-democratic ones Union wages are consistently higher than non-union wages, so we have evidence that unions are an improvement compared to direct relationships with employers. Source: literally every long-term economic comparison of wages done for the last 50 years.

Union wages have always been consistently higher enough to make the idea of shutting down and rebuilding on the other side of the planet just to ship the goods back attractive to many companies.

There's no evidence to support this and it's pretty easy to describe intuitively how this is irrelevant, untrue, or both.

If unions raised wages enough to offshore jobs those jobs would no longer exist, that union would not exist, and those wages would not contribute to the total average wage breakdowns that show an 18% increase in wages for union members.

Yet, today, union members make 18% more than non union members. The only thing the data actually suggests is that if you want an 18% raise you should join or start a union.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#112

Post by jart »

cambalache wrote: post #110
jart wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the pen mightier than sweat and blood? Upton Sinclair had a lot of impact, just sitting behind a desk, writing books about how nasty factories can be. Shabbat is basically two days with modern sleep schedules. Insurance started off as perks to attract top-tier. Progress for workers comes from many places.

What are you talking about? Unions are a 19th century European (mostly British) invention. Sinclair is a 20th century US writer, 100 years before him there were already strikes all over the world requesting better working conditions.

Spartacus is crying on Hades' shoulder due to your insensitive remarks. Organized conflict between social strata has been happening for eight thousand years. It's not particularly British. Nor was the movement to abolish slavery. That's a French and Vatican invention.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#113

Post by OJFord »

Schnitz wrote: post #67

There's only one company whose recruiting emails ALWAYS get deleted sight unseen: Amazon. Who in their right mind would want to work for a company that encourages union busting?

If you're not and don't want to be a member of a union it's unimportant trivia really.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#114

Post by truckerbill »

jrheard wrote: post #94
Animats wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So little is said about unions today. There was a time when newspapers had a "union beat", and you'd read about who was elected head of the UAW local and how the Steelworkers negotiations were going. It's been a long time since WCFL radio, "The Voice of Labor in Chicago". Few people know how unions work any more. They vary as much as companies do. Some are top down, some are bottom up. Some run their own insurance an…

What's a good way to learn more about the history and function and current status of unions? Are there any good books/resources that aren't particularly biased toward one side or the other?

There Is Power in a Union by Philip Dray is worth a read.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#115

Post by close04 »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #93
pasquinelli wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Workers produce useful stuff

Correct, workers do. Unions don't. They are fundamentally parasitic, which isn't necessarily a value judgement.

The only way to have any negotiating power is to present yourself as a single, unified entity. A union. Single workers or small groups have no power against a corporation. Just like individuals have no power against a government. It's only when they come together that they can effect change.

So fighting against unions is the same as fighting against people's right to associate since any group can have the same shortcomings unions do.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#116

Post by koshnaranek »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #93
pasquinelli wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Workers produce useful stuff

Correct, workers do. Unions don't. They are fundamentally parasitic, which isn't necessarily a value judgement.

So if only the people, the workers produce stuff, and the form of organization like the union is parasitic then the cooperation does not produce stuff as well.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#117

Post by koshnaranek »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #19

If Amazon's work force unionizes, Amazon will cease to be a dynamic company that sees rapid foreign expansion and growth in export revenue it earns for the US. The US will see yet another major driver of innovation and production growth, this time the tech industry, succumb to social activists and their rent-seeking-motivated ideological narratives. A century of pro-union-monopoly advocacy will not change the fact th…

Unions were a central driving force in labour protection laws and the lack of unions in the US might be a reason why you have so many people that are overworked and burn out.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#118

Post by CryptoPunk »

Supermancho wrote: post #101
CryptoPunk wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Market power is irrevelant to workers being able to fetch the market rate for their labor. Corporations compete with each other for a limited pool of labor. There is no generalized class conflict between corporations and workers in a free market. Competition happens just as much within classes as between them. Ultimately that results in the wages offered being determined by the underlying market forces of supply and…

> Market power is irrevelant to workers being able to fetch the market rate for their labor. If the market consists of few actors, you get collusion to depress wages and opportunity (in tech you had https://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage... ) but it exists across a number of industries. Your assertion assumes only good actors, which is not commensurate with reality.

Collusion of this type has a very minor impact on market rates. The example you cite is tech companies coming to an agreement to not cold call each other's employees to head hunt them. And wages in Silicon Valley have exploded over the last couple of decades so obviously there are much larger forces at play in setting wages than these collusions.

This sort of collusion can also be addressed in a much more targeted way than creating laws that give workers who unionize control over major hiring decisions of their employer.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#119

Post by CryptoPunk »

Supermancho wrote: post #105
CryptoPunk wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions depend not just on an exemption from anti-trust law, which in itsef is an anti-market intervention, but on state-imposed restrictions on businesses to give unions a monopoly over their workforces. It's an extreme disruption in the economy, with all predictable consequences for productivity. As for corporations and common law, that's a relatively minor deviation from the free market that would be almost entirel…

> state-imposed restrictions on businesses to give unions a monopoly over their workforces That's not how all unions work. That is how the worst ones are implemented in the US, imo. eg govt unions, teacher's union, police union, NRLCA vs UFCW or Airline unions (eg https://www.swamedia.com/pages/contracts )

That's how laws relating to unions and collective bargaining and striking work. You cannot negotiate with other parties once the majority of your employees in a work unit vote to collectively bargain. That means the union gets a monopoly over who you can negotiate with.

Similarly, you cannot fire and replace unionized workers who strike, which again means the union is controlling your company and determining who you can employ.

Re: Amazon's Anti-Union Training Video [video]

#120

Post by CryptoPunk »

koshnaranek wrote: post #117
CryptoPunk wrote: post #19

If Amazon's work force unionizes, Amazon will cease to be a dynamic company that sees rapid foreign expansion and growth in export revenue it earns for the US. The US will see yet another major driver of innovation and production growth, this time the tech industry, succumb to social activists and their rent-seeking-motivated ideological narratives. A century of pro-union-monopoly advocacy will not change the fact th…

Unions were a central driving force in labour protection laws and the lack of unions in the US might be a reason why you have so many people that are overworked and burn out.

Labor protection laws restrict contract liberty. They mandate minimum benefits and standards. On the surface that sounds nice, but in reality you don't improve working conditions and wages by making poor working conditions and poor wages illegal.

Every single benefit comes at a cost. Companies do not have an infinite amount of resources to spend on benefits. The optimal mix of benefits should be determined through bottom up organic processes, not by state fiat based on simplistic assumptions.

The process by which the market develops and quality of life improves is much more complex than these cookie cutter rules assume.

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