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Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

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Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#111

Post by cesarb »

s_T_e_v_o wrote: post #93

One thing I learned many years ago, you can solve infrastructure problems with software. If prior jets have multiple sensors and the new jet has one sensor, then software isn't going to help in this situation. Gyros worked back in 1911. why not use one to back up the failed sensor? seems like a simple fix that could be mounted anywhere on the plane.

> Gyros worked back in 1911. why not use one to back up the failed sensor?

An angle of attack sensor measures something a gyroscope cannot measure: the angle of the plane relative to the wind. The amount of lift produced by the wings depends on this angle.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#112

Post by vageli »

adrianN wrote: post #106
antihero wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to avoid recertification they kept their old computer hardware from earlier 737 generations, This is unbelievably fucked

No, it's not. Certification is an extremely expensive process with dubious benefits for safety. Why would you change hardware that has worked fine if it can fulfill your requirements?

> No, it's not. Certification is an extremely expensive process with dubious benefits for safety. Why would you change hardware that has worked fine if it can fulfill your requirements?

Is it fair to say the hardware is fulfilling the requirements though?

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#113

Post by freehunter »

adrianN wrote: post #106
antihero wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to avoid recertification they kept their old computer hardware from earlier 737 generations, This is unbelievably fucked

No, it's not. Certification is an extremely expensive process with dubious benefits for safety. Why would you change hardware that has worked fine if it can fulfill your requirements?

Because it obviously did not work fine and does not fulfill the requirements.

What seems to have dubious benefits for safety is lying to the regulators and shoehorning new processes into old technology. Because hundreds of people have died from that exact thing, just on this one airplane.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#114

Post by kjar »

It appears the 737 Max is a total failure. Pushed through by Boing to outpace Airbus, from physical design, attitude sensors, re-certification bypass imperative, and flight control software, finally killing nearly 600 people before being ground. In short I’m never flying in one!

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#115

Post by std_throwaway »

king_magic wrote: post #99
std_throwaway wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Closed source software should not be used in safety critical systems that affect the general public.

Most software engineers aren’t qualified to have an opinion about the quality of proprietary safety critical software systems that also happen to run against proprietary hardware. So unless you’ve found an economical way to develop an open source jetliner... honestly, what would be the point of open sourcing safety critical systems to the general public? I’m not at all saying it should be closed off from external saf…

Does being qualified grant you access to the code right now? Who decides if you're qualified and if permission is granted?

I assume that currently there's several gatekeepers involved who can shut most independent investigators out.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#117

Post by minedwiz »

rasz wrote: post #56
pcl wrote: post #2

> Because the fault was triggered by specific streams of erroneous flight data, a new software patch can be devised that monitors the computer for that highly unusual condition and prevents movement of the stabilizer when it occurs, one of the people said. Oh man. That sounds like a mess.

its industry standard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_firewall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_application_firewall

To be fair, any hardware running a WAF in Prod these days is going to have more compute power than a 737.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#118

Post by jeremyjh »

marcyb5st wrote: post #98
onli wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's seriously overdiplomatic. The plane was rushed and it was constructed very badly. It was absolutely irresponsible to bring it into service, it's not a question anymore. It's a plane that crashes itself automatically into the ground and that killed over 300 people.

Agreed. However, the worst part is the FAA. Specifically, what baffles me is the massive hand-wave they did on this considering it is one of their mandates to check flight-worthiness of Airplanes/Airlines. I hope all the other agencies worldwide will double check all the prior certifications issued by the FAA, because all their credibility is gone. Especially considering the US was the one the last countries to groun…

Regulatory capture. After their careers at the FAA they will go work at Boeing.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#119

Post by michaelcampbell »

heisenbit wrote: post #71
pcl wrote: post #2

> Because the fault was triggered by specific streams of erroneous flight data, a new software patch can be devised that monitors the computer for that highly unusual condition and prevents movement of the stabilizer when it occurs, one of the people said. Oh man. That sounds like a mess.

Yep. At this point in time they should have plenty of test cases and regression tests which should catch such situations. While Boeing may feel they are doing a lot of testing in the simulator - there are way fewer simulators staffed with test pilots than there are 737 MAX out there. When such errors surface at this time in manual testing it calls into question the development process. And a lot of the trust - aka. c…

Can you forward the data Airbus, your car or public transport vehicle manufacturer, Otis or equivalent elevator company obviously sent you for their respective operating environments?

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#120

Post by ethbro »

CydeWeys wrote: post #105
ethbro wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And by "airlines", let's be specific: American Airlines was the carrier that specifically asked Boeing to build an 737 with new engines.

Although they didn't explicitly ask for such insane engineering compromises to have been made.

Didn't they? They asked for it fast and cheap...
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