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Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

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Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#111

Post by nabla9 »

chewz wrote: post #102
nabla9 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-violent resistance is an option, but it requires very tough attitude. If people would just take the beating and lay down, like Gandhi-led resistance against Brits did, it could break down the violent strategy.

It takes a lot of stamina and courage to resist the provocation. Have people beaten on the streets or rounded up and still give up violence and pray for your oppressors.

Yes. Pacifism requires extreme courage.

Gandhi quote:

>My non-violence does not admit of running away from danger and leaving dear ones unprotected. Between violence and cowardly flight, I can only prefer violence to cowardice. I can no more preach non-violence to a coward than I can tempt a blind man to enjoy healthy scenes. Non-violence is the summit of bravery. And in my own experience, I have had no difficulty in demonstrating to men trained in the school of violence the superiority of non-violence. As a coward, which I was for years, I harboured violence. I began to prize non-violence only when I began to shed cowardice.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#112

Post by L_226 »

keanzu wrote: post #42

Excellent analysis here on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20492145 The Chinese and HK governments have realized they've lost the culture wars and public opinion so they've resorted to the tried and tested handbook of authoritarian governments, to create a cycle of violence to create justification for cracking down. This is a provocation. Protesters will now counter arm themselves with similar bats and stick…

HK police have already uncovered a stash of TATP stockpiled by "protesters" - https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/20/asia/hong-kong-explosives...

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#113

Post by [deleted] »

sho wrote: post #60
spiderdev wrote: post #16

A co-worker of mine just returned from visiting mainland China. She said everyone she spoke to, did not know about the protests in Hong Kong. They had no idea that something was happening there.

Claiming not to know was a way to avoid talking about it. Anyone in China who wants to know, knows. Of course the people in Shenzhen, less than 30km away, are aware of what's happening in HK. They just have no desire whatsoever to get into a political discussion with foreigners. Don't underestimate the "them and us" mentality in China. It's very pervasive. Your co-worker was assuredly on the "them" side of the equati…

[deleted]

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#114

Post by [deleted] »

Drakim wrote: post #65
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a hell of a lot harder (or at least more costly) to violently impose your will on people who can violently defend themselves.

A civilian population armed with guns to the teeth will still not be able to stand up even a little to a real well organized military with gear. Maybe it would be more costly, but the escalation would also provide the justification to strike down the population completely and simply murder all the protesters. Instead of reading about peaceful protesters being attacked you'd read about the military taking out insurgen…

[deleted]

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#115

Post by kmonsen »

navigatesol wrote: post #80
RankingMember wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we really think that armed citizens would have a chance against the current US military? Weaponry has come pretty far since the days the 2nd amendment was created.

> Do we really think that armed citizens would have a chance against the current US military? Would it surprise you to learn that the "US military" aren't a bunch of mindless drones, but are in fact family, friends, neighbors, co-workers and fellow citizens? And that they wouldn't necessarily feel great about slaughtering their fellow countrymen?

This is the key point, more or less every revolution in human history happened when the military switched sides and didn't want to shoot at civilians anymore.

Trying to come with 2nd amendment is bullshit, you have to get the sympathy by the military. This could be by inflicting damage, but more likely by having high enough casualties that the military thinks it is too much.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#116

Post by wavefunction »

Santosh83 wrote: post #92
nabla9 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-violent resistance is an option, but it requires very tough attitude. If people would just take the beating and lay down, like Gandhi-led resistance against Brits did, it could break down the violent strategy.

May not work these days. The British were half decent and still they killed thousands of people before they left India. If the protestors continue non-violently, we'll simply see them shot with rubber bullets and carted off, or barricaded and starved out. Countries these days are willing to escalate into violence since every major country has more than enough blood on its hands and prefers tacitly looking the other w…

One wonders if the British were even half decent when you consider their long history of colonial and imperial oppression. One might conclude they were fully indecent, in fact.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#117

Post by dayofthedaleks »

dorfsmay wrote: post #61
wp381640 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chenoweth and Stephan collected data on all violent and nonviolent campaigns from 1900 to 2006 that resulted in the overthrow of a government or in territorial liberation. They created a data set of 323 mass actions. Chenoweth analyzed nearly 160 variables related to success criteria, participant categories, state capacity, and more. The results turned her earlier paradigm on its head — in the aggregate, nonviolent…

This make sense intuitively: governments are better armed than the people (militarized police, military). If guns are used in a conflict between the people and a government, the government will crush the people immediately. On the other hand, enough protests and civil disobedience will disrupt the economy and the functioning of the government to the point they will have to react, or resign. I am not American and have…

It's arguable the Appalachian coal industry wouldn't have been unionized without armed agitation, but that may be unique to the region and the mine owners' eagerness to employ Pinkerton gunmen.

I'd say the last time armed resistance had direct impact on law was the abolition of slavery. Most specifically John Brown's taking of a federal armory in 1859. It didn't end well for Brown, his sons, or the freed slaves involved. It did, however, cause a polarization of public sentiment that accelerated the approach of civil war. Only after the other side was ground to paste was legislation changed nationwide.

To the commentors making a Vietnam analogy - short of storming federal installations ourselves, from whom are we to get the military-grade weaponry to put up any kind of resistance? Russia?

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#118

Post by Jedi72 »

orf wrote: post #35
MadSudaca wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The progressives in HN downvote you, but the truth is that being able to use violence to protect your individual freedoms is instrumental to democracy. Few places can boast the level of stability that EEUU has had in the last 150 years. Many were taken over by tyrants and armed mobs, than eventually chose their tyrant. It's no coincidence that in Venezuela the regime disarmed the people with a law that according to t…

What about the many, many other functioning democracies with incredibly strict gun control?

All of the west is shaped by America's dominance. Without their influence I suspect many typically western countries would be far more tyranically run.

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#119

Post by [deleted] »

nabla9 wrote: post #74
keanzu wrote: post #42

Excellent analysis here on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20492145 The Chinese and HK governments have realized they've lost the culture wars and public opinion so they've resorted to the tried and tested handbook of authoritarian governments, to create a cycle of violence to create justification for cracking down. This is a provocation. Protesters will now counter arm themselves with similar bats and stick…

Non-violent resistance is an option, but it requires very tough attitude. If people would just take the beating and lay down, like Gandhi-led resistance against Brits did, it could break down the violent strategy.

[deleted]

Re: Chaos in Hong Kong as hundreds of masked men assault protesters, journalists

#120

Post by verttii »

modi15 wrote: post #82

Seems to me this is Tiananmen part 2 unfolding before our eyes. And doesnt look like anyone will come to Hongkongs help. Hoping India will step up and do something. Seems unlikely though.

No foreign power would ever dare to intervene with HK. Every country is simply too horny about Chinese money nowadays
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