Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China • Hacker News Board

Re: Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China

#111

Post by wpietri » Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 4:23 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #16

wpietri wrote: post #7

There was a reply here, now dead, that I wanted to discuss: "Hey man, I'm just trying to feed my family. I have kids so that means I can behave however I want so long as it benefits my kids. And rather than trust some reviews on a platform anyone can sign up for, how about you do some reading on the app developer and their ToS and Privacy Policy." I'm adamantly opposed to spam, and back in the early days of the web (…

You had me until the part you suggested there was some subset of the upper class conspiring to keep an underclass of poor people... in order to make/keep themselves rich?Wouldn't rich people get much richer if there was more economically healthy middle class people buying their products and real estate or w/e they are making money off of? What could they possibly gain from ruining the economy and keeping others poor.…

There are two ways people measure wealth: absolute and relative. You can also score it individually or societally.

If rich people are trying to maximize absolute societal wealth, you'd be right.

However, if they're trying to maximize absolute individual wealth, then they have plenty of incentive to exploit people. Labor history is full of this. If my workers aren't my customers and the choice is between putting a dollar in my pocket or a dollar in theirs, then a wealth-maximizer is going to take the dollar every time. Does that mean less global wealth? Very often. Does an individual absolute wealth maximizer care? Not at all.

People, though, are primates. Dominance hierarchies are part of our evolutionary history. We don't just care about absolute wealth. We care about social status. For many, power is its own end. Power and its signifiers. E.g., positional goods are hugely appealing to some people. (As a great historical example, consider the Shakespeare-style lace ruff collar. It was the height of fashion when it was handmade. As soon as machine-made lace became possible, they went out of fashion because they no longer reliably indicated wealth.) For these people, what matters is individual relative wealth.

For some people, yes, the exact desired outcome is them being on top and everybody else well down below. Does that mean they are less absolutely wealthy? Sure. Do they care? No. For evidence, just look at the historically enormous number of kings, dukes, warlords, etc, etc. Most of the world for most of history has been run with approaches that are miles off "greatest (economic) good for the greatest number". Conspiracy is entirely unnecessary to explain that, just individuals seeking social dominance by any means that come to hand.

Re: Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China

#112

Post by natrik » Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 5:13 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #88

vpears87 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wealth is relative to others in society. If the pie grows, I maybe better off in absolute dollars. But if the percentage of the pie I control decreases, I am relatively poorer. Comparing how much wealthier/happier/successful/beautiful I am to my previous self is niether as satisfying nor as real as comparing to those immediately around me. I also wouldn't think a conspiracy is necessary. Just lobby to write tax, tari…

That is a self-defeatist view that encourages and amplifies the "hate the rich" sentiments in the society. 1 of 5 children of John D Rockefeller (richest man in history) died at 13 months. In the past 130 years, child mortality has decreased massively in the developed world. If that's not "real" or "satisfying" and the only achievement that truly fulfils you is beating other people, that's a fairly sad life to live.

I believe that's what humanity should strive for, but looking at a labourer making $5 a day, it would be easier for him to 'hate the rich' neighbour who makes $10 a day and can afford an Air Conditioner than appreciate the fact that he is well off compared to his grandfather or people in neighbouring villages making $1 a day in terms of health, etc.

Also the experiment of being given the choice of either getting nothing or getting $X and giving their worst enemy 2*$X. Small groups often compete against each other, "keeping up with the Joneses", and while it is a sort of hedonistic treadmill, it's an easy way to gain satiety.

Re: Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China

#113

Post by wpietri » Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 7:05 PM UTC

drevil-v2 wrote: post #24

wpietri wrote: post #7

There was a reply here, now dead, that I wanted to discuss: "Hey man, I'm just trying to feed my family. I have kids so that means I can behave however I want so long as it benefits my kids. And rather than trust some reviews on a platform anyone can sign up for, how about you do some reading on the app developer and their ToS and Privacy Policy." I'm adamantly opposed to spam, and back in the early days of the web (…

I could not disagree with you more. You have extrapolated a lack of morality in well off human beings in such black and white totality. What a f king trite and naive generalization you have made. There are bad shitty people and bad intentions across all populations. Rich or poor. Men or Women. Old or Young.

I'm definitely not suggesting something black and white. Maybe don't take a short paragraph as indicative of my entire thought on a topic.

I agree that there are bad people everywhere. But practicing many kinds of badness requires power over others. So it's entirely unsurprising that people who like those kinds of badness will disproportionately seek power.

And I'm hardly the first to observe this. As Douglas Adams wrote: "It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it..."

Re: Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China

#114

Post by nickthemagicman » Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 7:49 PM UTC

anonymous5133 wrote: post #44

nickthemagicman wrote: post #2

I've always wondered a software simulator wouldn't work? Like a bunch of phone VMs behind a proxy.

Let's just say you're not the first one to think of that "bright" idea. People running on VM and behind a proxy are easy to detect so you don't get paid for it.

Right. Not saying I am. Just looking for why.

I mean at an even lower level why can't the packets sent to the app store be collected analyzed and then forged.

Just don't understand why.

Re: Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China

#115

Post by greendestiny_re » Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 8:19 PM UTC

social_quotient wrote: post #90

marak830 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just before my son was born, I was struggling to find a stable job. So I worked on online web dev jobs for some seriously shady characters. I made between 10 and 15 sites that they would buy databases and mass mail users in various industries to try and get them to sign up for really shitty programs. (One for example was a roofing company promising 100's of clients). The amount of work I did on the back end to track…

So how different is this from CRO, form abandonment, tracking, and advanced user analytics? I get the sense that if it pays really well and is for a large company it’s not often judged, in fact it’s amazing, but if it’s for a smaller company with a less clear business model then it seems shady? How do we sure that up? In our technical morality brains?

I tried replying to your comment previously, but it seems you're unaware of it. Your e-mail address posted in another one of your comments isn't working, as well as the official "Contact us" e-mail address on the same website.

Re: Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China

#116

Post by la_barba » Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 10:23 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #7

There was a reply here, now dead, that I wanted to discuss: "Hey man, I'm just trying to feed my family. I have kids so that means I can behave however I want so long as it benefits my kids. And rather than trust some reviews on a platform anyone can sign up for, how about you do some reading on the app developer and their ToS and Privacy Policy." I'm adamantly opposed to spam, and back in the early days of the web (…

To your (b) - Its nerds like us that enable those companies. To blame the "companies" also means to blame the individuals who work at those companies. Its easy to blame Google, but we celebrate their engineers at tech conferences when they talk about technically challenging stuff. Sure, thats cool, but then they go back from the conference and check in some code to mine someones inbox or track their online activity. The buck stops everywhere on the way to the top.

Like.. these are the richest of the richest companies in the richest country by far whose owners are also amongst the richest people on earth, and they won't hire people to do real reviews or checks of inventory or speak to customers or review advertising campaigns for shady or misleading ads, and tons of other things that people complain about. "It doesn't scale" == "I'll take the hit when someone eventually games the system".

Re: Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China

#117

Post by la_barba » Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 10:37 PM UTC

cageface wrote: post #53

wpietri wrote: post #7

There was a reply here, now dead, that I wanted to discuss: "Hey man, I'm just trying to feed my family. I have kids so that means I can behave however I want so long as it benefits my kids. And rather than trust some reviews on a platform anyone can sign up for, how about you do some reading on the app developer and their ToS and Privacy Policy." I'm adamantly opposed to spam, and back in the early days of the web (…

Parasites show up in just about every complex ecosystem. Often they eventually establish some kind of symbiosis with their host. Life is chaotic and messy and that is often hard thing for us to accept. Ecosystems that endure find a way to balance these competing forces.

Why are the powerless people the parasites? Google (and also others) is not a morally neutral entity here. They created this problem. They could stem the flow of malvertising or click-farming or spamming by hiring more and more review staff as their company has scaled, but its simply not in their DNA. I mean literally they are the richest of the richest of companies in the richest country and their owners are amongst the richest people on earth.. and the tired out cliche is still "it doesn't scale". Yeah..I'm pretty sure you can hire a few more folks to your team.. :-)

Re: Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China

#118

Post by zkid18 » Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 10:41 PM UTC

I think the roots of fake engagement are coming from our perception of key success metrics for content creators. I don't blame those people - advertisers and services are more in charge of that behavior. We tend to think that likes and views are the key signs of content quality or popularity.

By the way, WeChat has a really nice way to cope with fake likes. For official accounts they hide the total number of subscribers, leaving only the number of friends that read this account. Instagram is hiding the number of likes on posts in several countries as well, in order to "remove pressure" on users.

I think that is on of the ways for healthier content ecosystem.

Re: Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China

#119

Post by mrep » Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 11:19 PM UTC

neurostimulant wrote: post #71

mrep wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

App stores are also used for money laundering. Create a bogus app, spend a bunch of money "buying" your app and now you have "legitimate" money.

Is 30% cut by Apple/Google actually competitive compared to other money laundering methods?

I'm sort of guessing here based on movies/things I have read since I ain't no money launderer, but I think locality to the source of money makes a huge difference. If you are a local drug dealer who makes all their money in their local currency in cash, then it is probably most efficient to open up some local business like a dry cleaner (i believe that's what one of the "businesses" they had in the movie american gangster) which "happens to make a bunch of money through pseudonymous cash". That way, you would only have to pay sales tax.

If you are selling to people outside your main currency though, you need someway to convert it back and "digital" transactions seem ideal so I can see the extra cost being worth it (you just happen to have a lot of american customers who like your digital product...)

Re: Click farms: a shadowy internet industry is booming in China

#120

Post by mrep » Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 11:29 PM UTC

moate wrote: post #109

ryanlol wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sure a prosecutor could fit in a money laundering charge too, but I still find it weird to call this money laundering. The goal here isn’t to obscure the source of the money, the goal is to monetize credit card fraud. Nobody would actually use iTunes to launder money, the fees are simply too high. >Then I make clean money on the developer side. That money is not clean. >Maybe I’ll use gift cards to buy gift cards…

"A high % of your money" is not "all your money". Let's say I've bought these bogus cards. This is the starting point, with dirty money. Anything bought here is obvious and traceable. I take that money, and I buy Visa gift cards, which basically function as cash. I take those Visas and buy Amex gift cards, losing 6% (ballparking here, it's actually 5.95% for $100) of my take to fees and then another 10% to fees/shipp…

> I now have about 55-65% of my original take in relatively clean money that I convert to bitcoin and back.

I'm no tax investigator expert, but I cannot think of a more sketchy/illegal way to "make a lot of money" than by receiving a bunch of bitcoin especially considering every bitcoin transaction is recorded on a public leger. They have every accounts history you received money from. How are you going to explain receiving all those transactions? At least with your app, you have something to show what people paid for even if it is shit.