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Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

bbc.com

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Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#111

Post by sandworm101 »

whatshisface wrote: post #99
khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

You're assuming that Google would act as a mole, implementing the censorship in bad faith. Why wouldn't they advance the state of the art for censorship, making it even more effective in an attempt to please the Chinese government? In fact, if China is allowing them in, the party must have some reason to believe the second one will come to pass instead of the first.

Or china quietly takes direct control over the machines biult and run by google. Google then, from the user's perspective, has become that problem governmemt.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#112

Post by gurkendoktor »

khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

If Google had more business in China, the CCP could blackmail them into censoring their results in other countries as well. Just look at how the CCP bullied international airlines about Taiwan, the laws being awfully vague hasn't helped one bit.

Letting the CCP export its censorship back into the West in the hopes that Google will improve life in China is a hell of a gamble.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#113

Post by Allower »

khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

Do you not realize that hundreds of millions of people deserve better than an authoritarian government? If you indeed want a better life for these people, censorship is something you must fight, not acquiesce to.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#115

Post by ctime »

khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

Enabling censorship and oppression should not be a race to the bottom - which is what you are advocating for.

I don't understand how any search engine approved in China could be "surfacing better information in queries" - they are all effectively under the same authoritative control. Are you placing your believe in hopes and prayers that real information will be "accidentally" leaked to the oppressed masses in China? How cute.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#116

Post by tempguy9999 »

khc wrote: post #86

As an overseas Chinese (born and grew up in Hong Kong but have relatives in China) I am sadden by this and HN comments. Any claim that Google would have helped China censor Chinese citizens ignores the fact that Chinese search engines are already censored. Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships and as a side effect, allow people to access some inf…

> Because laws in this area are often vague, I can see that dragonfly would apply varying levels of censorships

It doesn't follow to me. The reverse actually. 'laws in this area are often vague' for a reason - so that You Can't Do That becomes not a judicial matter with precise as possible definition, but a matter of personal feeling. Then the rulers can come down hard on whoever just because they didn't like something.

That's more likely to pressure companies into being on the conservative side of things; censoring a little more rather than a litte less. And google's in it for the money in a big, rich market.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#117

Post by lvmii »

sangnoir wrote: post #101
lvmii wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU doesn't even have free speech to begin with[] and it doesn't seem like it bothers many people. [] https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/its-not-fr...

American-style "Free speech" is incompatible with the right-to-be-forgotten, privacy[1] and other ideals that Europeans give primacy. Someone smarter than I am once summarized American freedoms as "Freedom to _", and European ones as "Freedom from _" 1. IIRC, it is illegal for newspapers publish arrestee's full names in Germany to protect their privacy - assumption of innocence and all that. This law wouldn't hold in…

Don't understand what that has to do with what basically is a blasphemy law.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#118

Post by patejam »

ezoe wrote: post #98
peteretep wrote: post #41

To me, this feels like an area Uncle Sam and the EU need to get involved in. Declare all censorship or need to comply with the Great Firewall to be a trade barrier, freeze out all Chinese tech companies on that basis, and find a way to strongly discourage American and European companies from in any way enabling it.

Both US and EU exercise censorship in the name of: + copyrights + trademarks + patents(really bogus patents) + religion(these days, US outright ban any casual religious reference because it offend some believers, resulting modifying some manga/anime/game) + national security + ex-political party symbol(swastika, but they can't tell the difference between nazi symbol and Buddism symbol which is widely used in Japanese…

So a couple things (From the US perspective):

1. Copyright, trademarks, and patents are a pretty weak argument for "censorship" IMO. But I guess I see where you're coming from. There are also many "fair-use" exceptions for these that make it less "censorship" and more "preventing profit on other people's ideas".

2. "US outright ban any casual religious reference because it offend some believers, resulting modifying some manga/anime/game" -- Can you give an example? This seems to go directly against first amendment rights.

3. "national security" -- There have been many cases where the government will work with press to attempt to stop them from releasing information that would damage national security. There have also been many cases where the press has not listened, and they're allowed to do that. What specifically are you talking about here? Direct theft of government property/information is illegal, but I would hardly call that censorship. NDAs I guess are censorship, but they are an agreement between two parties, not the government deciding arbitrarily what to censor.

4. "ex-political party symbol" -- absolutely not banned in the US.

5. Okay the last one is a fair example of censorship. I'm not familiar with the US laws on that one and frankly I don't want to find out...

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#120

Post by VRay »

ISL wrote: post #105
tmcronn wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies foreign to China cooperate with the local government for another reason also: they want access to Chinese customers. If Google were to refuse the Chinese terms of business, they would be barred from doing business with the largest population in the world. And the climate over there is that their government risks little political capital in banning non-compliant firms.

Forgoing 18% of a market in order to uphold bedrock principles seems like a worthy trade.

"You're fired" -The Board of Directors
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