Choose Boring Technology • Hacker News Board

Re: Choose Boring Technology

#111

Post by freetime2 » Tue, Jul 02, 2019, 1:39 PM UTC

lvh wrote: post #77

macspoofing wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking about a tech stack, which is not the same as, for example, a modern web application. You can build a perfectly modern web app with 'old' Java/JEE stack, backed by an unsexy SQL-based database. You don't need Node.js with MongoDB. Techstacks very very very rarely enable new use-cases. They are the equivalent of fashion statements by young developers who haven't learned what it means to support software…

Do you similarly feel like frontend stacks have seen no meaningful innovation? I think your argument works fine-ish for backends but it's bananas to suggest that jQuery is the same thing as React or Svelte. I do security for a living and maybe 100% of all jQuery sites have XSS. If I find a React page I can just grep for dangerouslySetInnerHTML and I'm 80% of the way there. (I am exaggerating, but hopefully my point i…

So I do think front end stacks have come a long way over the past decade... but just to give a counter example...

I have seen a lot of sites get worse as a result of migrating from server-side rendering to client-side rendering. Things like broken back buttons, massive page sizes, and terrible rendering performance on low powered hardware.

An example that comes to mind is Salesforce. They introduced a new “lighting experience” that seems to use a newer stack. But it’s taken them ages to migrate all of the features over, forcing users to switch back and forth between the old and the new. It can also be a real beast to render on something like a surface tablet. It must be costing them an enormous amount of money to support both UIs, and I have to wonder if it was really worth it vs maybe applying some new CSS and more incremental improvements.

Re: Choose Boring Technology

#112

Post by nemild » Tue, Jul 02, 2019, 1:40 PM UTC

sethc2 wrote: post #107

If you work on a Node backend with Javascript, Where does the idea of switching to Typescript fall into this discussion? Is it a boring technology, or a shiny new technology? It is still using the same tech in Node, which you already know the benefits and pitfalls for, but it isn't like there is no overhead to start consuming Typescript if you haven't used it before. My hope is for those who agree with the author's p…

I would go for it, but just the fact that you're asking shows that you're less susceptible to injecting needless technology. Typescript has also been used for years, and it has a place as Javascript is used for more complex products than it was intended.

I wrote a short bit in "Handling Hype" here arguing that you need to dig into your problem, assess claims, and weigh tradeoffs:

https://www.nemil.com/mongo/1.html

Re: Choose Boring Technology

#113

Post by shapiro92 » Tue, Jul 02, 2019, 1:40 PM UTC

nemild wrote: post #108

shapiro92 wrote: post #100

Such strongly opinionated statements should be taken with caution. In our profession context is key and this theory does not always apply in every context. Imagine if the Netflix guys were told to stay boring and not invent new shiny things? Ofcourse not everyone is in that scale. I do not want to use the latest shiny tech but I do not want it to be boring as well. We are confusing KISS and boring here. A company I u…

I would change that last phrase, "I want to be engaged and active in what I do" to "I want to build something that solves user needs and ships and is maintainable." Or at least a mix between the two.

I would not change it no. Let's say you are working on solving world hunger but you have to press 1 button every 24 seconds for 8 hours. Yes the goal is great, but I wouldnt be able to do it for more than a week.

I need to be engaged and active in what I do 40 hours a week in which 40% is taken by the Gov as taxes.

Re: Choose Boring Technology

#114

Post by fnord77 » Tue, Jul 02, 2019, 1:40 PM UTC

sethc2 wrote: post #107

If you work on a Node backend with Javascript, Where does the idea of switching to Typescript fall into this discussion? Is it a boring technology, or a shiny new technology? It is still using the same tech in Node, which you already know the benefits and pitfalls for, but it isn't like there is no overhead to start consuming Typescript if you haven't used it before. My hope is for those who agree with the author's p…

See that slide that shows the bipartite graph of Problems on the left and Technology on the right. Typescript would be an extra edge in that graph and thus would impact the equation in the subsequent slides. So it would be a shiny new technology.

Re: Choose Boring Technology

#115

Post by lvh » Tue, Jul 02, 2019, 1:40 PM UTC

sebringj wrote: post #72

This so depends on the talent of your team. If you are normal then play it safe as most of us are. But if you want to make something great then you must resort to exploration, discovery and invention.

Part of the point of the article is that you probably don't need new technology to create a new _product_.

Re: Choose Boring Technology

#116

Post by nemild » Tue, Jul 02, 2019, 1:41 PM UTC

matwood wrote: post #104

crispyambulance wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Code is not "a liability". It is a tool that can be used masterfully or utterly abused. Every craftsman has to invest in their tools. And for someone to truly master their craft they must sometimes hone their tool skills speculatively, without short-term gain, and by sacrificing the time and attention used for other things, like actual projects. If everyone just obeyed their project manager and always focused 100% on…

Code is absolutely a liability. Every line written must now be maintained which incurs an ongoing cost. What was missing in the gp comment is that code is also an asset. The goal is to have the value of the asset greater than the liability. This ratio changes over time given a multitude of factors like problem domain and how well the original code was written.

Agreed. A favorite quote: “[E]verybody wants to build and nobody wants to do maintenance.” - Kurt Vonnegut, Hocus Pocus

For a long time, my bias was to write code when faced with a problem, without realizing the debt I was taking on and the other solutions available.

https://www.nemil.com/on-software-engineering/dont-write-cod...

Re: Choose Boring Technology

#117

Post by StreamBright » Tue, Jul 02, 2019, 1:43 PM UTC

1 million times yes. We used to have a late adopter group in Amazon for people who do not get excited about new and shiny and keep on rolling with stable and battle tested tech.

Re: Choose Boring Technology

#118

Post by fnord77 » Tue, Jul 02, 2019, 1:43 PM UTC

This is great and I agree 100%.

The problem we faced is hiring people. We found that in order to attract talent, we had to let them use the shiny new technology. Otherwise it would be hard to attract anyone.

Re: Choose Boring Technology

#119

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 02, 2019, 1:44 PM UTC

ChrisSD wrote: post #21

Is this about BoringSSL or The Boring Company? There's so many new and exciting boring technologies to follow that it's hard to keep track.

[deleted]

Re: Choose Boring Technology

#120

Post by draw_down » Tue, Jul 02, 2019, 1:44 PM UTC

Everything you think is boring was new at some point.

Ultimately, shiny is what other people like, boring is what you like. What other people like is complicated, what you like is simple. Et cetera