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US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

theguardian.com

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Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#111

Post by raxxorrax »

cyphar wrote: post #100
duxup wrote: post #67

I don't really buy it. The crime he was accused of by the US is helping someone try to break into a laptop. That's beyond most journalistic standards for conduct and a criminal act. We'll see what can be proved in court from here.

He is also being accused of 17 counts of breaching the Espionage Act with a maximum sentence of several lifetimes in prison. The conspiracy to break the CFAA charge was just the taster -- and I would argue that it was done tactically so that the discussion of Julian would be "he's a hacker not a journalist". If I was working for the DoJ that's without question what I would've done -- whether the accusations were true…

Which should be legal since the US does breach privacy around the world (with the help of his awfully quite home country).

So I don't see the justification to prosecute him. Of course governmental data of the US isn't protected from non-citizen access. Why should it, these are the rules they themselves set. It is naive to think that governmental actors have an advantage at espionage. On the contrary. The most advantages has anyone without critical secrets.

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#112

Post by leftyted »

It remains to be seen whether the charges under the Espionage Act stick. They may not and I don't think they should. But it seems a bit breathless to declare these charges a "threat to journalism". Assange participated in the leaking of classified documents, which is different than simply publishing.

There's a sharp divide in how people view Assange. Some buy into his hipster-tech-Jesus persona. These people think the rape (read: surreptitious condom removal) allegations were materialized by the US government, somehow overlooking the fact that nearly everyone who has interacted with Assange has a negative opinion of him personally (see - https://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n05/andrew-ohagan/ghosting).

I see Assange as a tragic figure. Publishing the "Collateral Murder" video was good. But Assange's worldview is basically incoherent. "All information should be open" is a naive position and there's a > 0 chance that Assange was used by Russia. When you publish everything, you're obviously putting yourself in a position in which you can be used. Further, states are allowed to have secrets for the same reason people are allowed to have secrets. It isn't possible for governments to conduct foreign policy with everything in the open. Basically, Assange did not "publish responsibly" and I believe his motivation was mostly personal fame. I'd contrast Assange with Daniel Ellsberg rather than comparing them as this article does.

That said, I think the US government would have been better off not pursuing him at all. Now that they have him, I hope he just gets a slap on the wrist.

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#113

Post by k1m »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #65
k1m wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, the Guardian has been one of the most vocal papers in attacking and ridiculing Assange. We collected some of this output here https://theguardian.fivefilters.org/assange/ Especially damning now with the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture describing his treatment as psychological torture: https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?N...

I'm sorry, but your web site seems like a bit of nonsense veiled in a guise that it's out to present "the truth". Many of the linked tweets don't resolve, and the rest of the web site appears to be purely a Greenwald support group in his seeming vendetta against his former employer. The site also proclaims [paraphrasing] "do not trust the Guardian—read our write-ups of the same subjects instead". I can't take that an…

> Many of the linked tweets don't resolve

Two of the three linked tweets don't resolve because the accounts appear to have removed older tweets. Having followed the two accounts for a while (Mark Curtis and Matt Kennard), I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with a change of heart about the Guardian (a look at their recent tweets will confirm this).

Mark Curtis's tweet is captured by the Wayback Machine:

https://web.archive.org/web/20190411174950/https://twitter.c...

Matt Kennard's new Twitter account has plenty of interesting findings on the Guardian's deputy editor:

https://twitter.com/dckennard

> the rest of the web site appears to be purely a Greenwald support group in his seeming vendetta against his former employer.

Our suggested reading page - https://theguardian.fivefilters.org/assange/better-media.htm... - contains only one link to a Greenwald article, but considering Greenwald led the reporting at the Guardian on the NSA revelations which won the Guardian a Pulitzer, I think his comments on this matter shouldn't be so easily dismissed.

> I should add, if corporate-sponsored journalism outlets is a problem for your group, then I suggest you also drop The Intercept: "Financial backing for The Intercept was provided by Pierre Omidyar, the eBay founder."

Personally not a fan of The Intercept. I like Glenn Greenwald's work though.

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#114

Post by raxxorrax »

ANPEQ-1 wrote: post #8
josefresco wrote: post #4

Just because Assange did one (or more) good things (Collateral Murder) does not make everything else he does, also good. Assange is not a journalist, and ceased being a journalist when he decided to enforce personal agendas and arguably work with nation-states to harm other nation-states. Even if you believe he's a journalist, journalists should not be above the law even if part of their work is for the good of the p…

Thank you. There is such thing as legitimate secrets. The threat of jail for wholesale and thoughtless release of top secret information... is a good threat. Professional journalists know this and shouldn't jump on the Assange bandwagon; they understand that their power comes a duty of care.

Secrets need to be justified. Otherwise you cannot hold your allegedly democratic government accountable.

War crimes are no valid secrets and there was no legitimate channel. You would be ethically required to act and leak the information.

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#115

Post by levelist_com »

throwaway100773 wrote: post #92
levelist_com wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you encourage others to steal classified information and then publish it without regard to the harm it may cause others, you are not a journalist, you are a criminal. When you go on to publish stolen information about one Presidential candidate, in a foreign election no less, and not the other you are no longer a journalist - not that he ever was, you are a tool. Im not making an argument about whether or not th…

Your statement makes no sense. There is a lot of information that ought to be exposed, is classified and will cause harm to some people. Exposing secrets almost necessarily will cause harm to somebody. Furthermore you refuse to allow assange to be classified as a journalist on that basis, which is exactly what Glenn greenwald did. So I suppose you would disqualify Glenn greenwald as a journalist as well? If not you’r…

I personally think Glenn Greenwald is piece of shit but that is beside the point. It doesnt matter what I think about whether or not the information in question should be exposed. As a person that has held a security clearance I can tell you this, it isnt for me to decide - That decision was way above my pay grade. I personally believe both Snowden and Manning should be imprisoned for a better part of the rest of their lives, but thats just me. They arent heroes, no matter how much you try to make that so. Its pretty egotistical of someone to believe they can see the bigger picture and know what the outcome of exposing that data will be. Data is classified for a reason and that decision wasn't made by you or I. It'd be even more maniacal of someone to decide the fate of others by exposing it which is what Assange, Snowden, Manning, and others have decided of their own volition to do.

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#116

Post by levelist_com »

crdoconnor wrote: post #108
levelist_com wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... let me get this straight. Youre alright with a foreign national stealing or encouraging the theft of classified US intel and publishing as long as it didnt happen on US soil? Further, youre alright with Americans being exposed and/or killed b/c of it? Because, you know, though it was a crime against the US, it was perpetrated by a foreign national of foreign soil?

>Further, youre alright with Americans being exposed and/or killed b/c of it? There's no evidence of this. Since the leaks were about embarrassing unprosecuted US military murders of civilians arguably it saved lives by driving them to be more careful.

There is no evidence of this that you are aware of.

>There's no evidence of this. Since the leaks were about embarrassing unprosecuted US military murders of civilians arguably it saved lives by driving them to be more careful.

this is absolute nonsense

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#117

Post by cyphar »

leftyted wrote: post #112

It remains to be seen whether the charges under the Espionage Act stick. They may not and I don't think they should. But it seems a bit breathless to declare these charges a "threat to journalism". Assange participated in the leaking of classified documents, which is different than simply publishing. There's a sharp divide in how people view Assange. Some buy into his hipster-tech-Jesus persona. These people think th…

> Assange participated in the leaking of classified documents, which is different than simply publishing.

This is an accusation made by the US government, it's not a fact. WikiLeaks accepted leaked documents and published them after verifying they were true. This is basically what journalists do (though they usually write articles that summarise the leaks).

Also, WikiLeaks did redact documents on many ocassions (in some cases even asking the US State Department what information should not be published). Everyone remembers the mostly-unredacted leaks of the war logs, but most people haven't followed up and seen that they did start redacting more things after the backlash. Though they never redacted sources or methods because those things have proven to help people in the past.

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#118

Post by cyphar »

foldr wrote: post #103
syn0byte wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony in your argument is absolutely breath taking. The footage of the US Military murdering a dozen people, of which 2 worked for the press, was part of leaks for which he now faces charges. "How dare he show the US murdering journalists! That could lead to more journalist getting murdered."

No, the comment refers to Wikileaks releasing the names of American informants in Iraq, potentially endangering their lives.

Future WikiLeak publications took more care redacting documents (even asking the US State Department for advice). So I disagree with what WikiLeaks did in that instance, and it's clear they adjusted their ways.

But it should also be made very clear that there is zero evidence that anyone was harmed as a result of the leak. Yes, this may have been luck or lots of effort by the US State Department, but it still something to consider.

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#119

Post by duxup »

cyphar wrote: post #100
duxup wrote: post #67

I don't really buy it. The crime he was accused of by the US is helping someone try to break into a laptop. That's beyond most journalistic standards for conduct and a criminal act. We'll see what can be proved in court from here.

He is also being accused of 17 counts of breaching the Espionage Act with a maximum sentence of several lifetimes in prison. The conspiracy to break the CFAA charge was just the taster -- and I would argue that it was done tactically so that the discussion of Julian would be "he's a hacker not a journalist". If I was working for the DoJ that's without question what I would've done -- whether the accusations were true…

I think the espionage act topic is worthy of discussion.

The question about the laptop is pretty settled to me. It's against the law to help someone try to break into something like that. I think that is a valid law, doing so is step well outside what a journalist should do, and all of that is regardless if you are successful or not. Also we'll see what he says in court about that, I could have sworn he or his lawyer already noted their lack of success, that sounded like they were talking about actually trying to do it.

I do think in my mind the two topics are tied together, if someone is not behaving as a journalist then I think the context of the charges changes dramatically.

Re: US efforts to jail Assange for espionage are a grave threat to a free media

#120

Post by chrisseaton »

bogle wrote: post #74
k1m wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, the Guardian has been one of the most vocal papers in attacking and ridiculing Assange. We collected some of this output here https://theguardian.fivefilters.org/assange/ Especially damning now with the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture describing his treatment as psychological torture: https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?N...

"Support non-corporate media"? Are you suggesting The Guardian is a corporation? (They are a trust.) Ah, your comment history shows you are waging a vendetta.

> Are you suggesting The Guardian is a corporation?

The Guardian has been incorporated for hundreds of years. Yes they're a corporation.

https://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/32/Guardian-Me...

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