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Economists Are Obsessed with Job Creation – How About Less Work? (2017)

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111–120 of 186 posts

Re: Economists Are Obsessed with Job Creation – How About Less Work? (2017)

#111
post #10

Theoretically it's fine, why not. In practice, who would opt to coordinate twice as big group of people with halved worktime?

Why don’t we have half as many people working 80 hours then?

Because employers aren’t generally willing to pay the premium necessary to get workers to do that. In some fields they are and the workers do, e.g. law, investment banking, medicine.

Re: Economists Are Obsessed with Job Creation – How About Less Work? (2017)

#112
post #43
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fact, retiring early increases mortality[1]. I suspect that has a lot to do with the structure of our society, and our relationship with work. From TFA: > In fact, quantitative studies revealed that the average adult hunter-gatherer spent about 20 hours a week at hunting and gathering, and a few hours more at other subsistence-related tasks such as making tools and preparing meals (for references, see Gray, 2009…

Sounds lovely, I wonder why they abandoned it for agriculture.

Because at the beginning they got an increase in food security for a small increase in hours worked. Then as time went on their population grew larger and they became better able to divide into agricultural, administrative and violence specialists and with their greater population and capacity for violence they expanded. The greater population and military prowess meant that in a competition with hunter gatherers for land and other resources the agriculturalists generally won. They couldn’t revert to hunter gathering without huge loss of life due to the loss of food and over time their population grew until they were near the carrying capacity of agriculture and sometimes overshot and died in famines or wars.

Agriculture is great for a small number of generations for everyone and then you can’t go back without mass death.

Re: Economists Are Obsessed with Job Creation – How About Less Work? (2017)

#113
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is point. The wheels, the engine, the frame, hundreds of other things... You can't point to one part a car and say "that's the bit that actually gets us from point a to point b" (It's also a jab at the intellectual bankruptcy of Atlas Shrugged)

I am still confused. So are you implying the engineers who think they are the engine of the world incorrect or not?

Oh, Sorry. It's a really shaky rhetorical flourish if you don't instinctively associate "the engine of the world" with Atlas Shrugged, Galts Gulch and the criticisms thereof.

In plainer English: it's not a swipe at engineers, it's a swipe at engineers who think they few highly skilled individuals produce the majority of the economic output of the world.

Re: Economists Are Obsessed with Job Creation – How About Less Work? (2017)

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there exists unskilled necessary work that armies of skilled workers can not replace. But even beyond that there's armies of skilled necessary work that skilled workers can not replace either but seem to forget exist. Apple doesn't exist without massive sophisticated logistical support but no one ever points out that the naval architects at Maersk or the welders at their shipyards are one piece of the process tha…

> And there exists unskilled necessary work that armies of skilled workers can not replace. I think this is false. Unskilled work is easy to teach and learn, by definition. All you need is an "army" and the unskilled work can be easily fulfilled.

Well then it'd be an army of unskilled labor wouldn't it.

Re: Economists Are Obsessed with Job Creation – How About Less Work? (2017)

#115

I live in SF and I have been in and out of the tech industry, so I know the city from both perspectives. (I now work at one of the big tech companies.) So many people outside of the industry work more than one job. They need to. Wages are too low. That is the problem, wages. Focus on that, economists, so ordinary people can get by on one job's wages.

> Wages are too low.

Compared to costs

We know mainly why costs are too high in the Bay Area, and it's mostly housing. Which is a solvable problem, if only the market was able to expand housing supply.

Re: Economists Are Obsessed with Job Creation – How About Less Work? (2017)

#116
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you get a degree, it’s really the book publishers, librarians, and coal burning electricity plant that kept the lights on who deserve most of the credit?

Their contribution was necessary, I mean it's utterly facile but: you weren't gonna get a degree from a university if the university doesn't exist. There's a billion or so people in addition to them and a few billion more that got us to this point. It's not that there is no such thing as individual achievement it's that there is no "small minority" skilled or unskilled that the modern economy can be reduced to.

Sure as a whole, on average.

But there absolutely is a small minority of extreme producers in most domains.

Re: Economists Are Obsessed with Job Creation – How About Less Work? (2017)

#117

The problem is fairly simple. The actual output of society is produced by a relatively small minority of skilled individuals that are not easily replicable (ie fungibility is largely a myth). We need those people to work a full week operating the machines that actually make all the output we all consume. But why should they do that if nobody else is working? They could just make enough for the small set of people tha…

Can you provide actual sources to support the claim that a very small number of people are responsible for output?

Re: Economists Are Obsessed with Job Creation – How About Less Work? (2017)

#118
“The individual, in our society, works for profit; but the social purpose of his work lies in the consumption of what he produces. It is this divorce between the individual and the social purpose of production that makes it so difficult for men to think clearly in a world in which profit-making is the incentive to industry. We think too much of production, and too little of consumption. One result is that we attach too little importance to enjoyment and simple happiness, and that we do not judge production by the pleasure that it gives to the consumer.”

--Bertrand Russell, In Praise of Idleness (1932)

http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html

Re: Economists Are Obsessed with Job Creation – How About Less Work? (2017)

#119
post #115

I live in SF and I have been in and out of the tech industry, so I know the city from both perspectives. (I now work at one of the big tech companies.) So many people outside of the industry work more than one job. They need to. Wages are too low. That is the problem, wages. Focus on that, economists, so ordinary people can get by on one job's wages.

> Wages are too low. Compared to costs We know mainly why costs are too high in the Bay Area, and it's mostly housing. Which is a solvable problem, if only the market was able to expand housing supply.

> if only the market was able to expand housing supply.

If only.. there was more land. Building houses is not the bottleneck. Land is. You'd have to create a 'second floor' of land to mitigate the problem.

Re: Economists Are Obsessed with Job Creation – How About Less Work? (2017)

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The actual output of society is produced by a relatively small minority of skilled individuals that are not easily replicable This speaks personally to me as why tech workers (and multi-generation urbanites) are seen as widely disconnected: being persuaded a small number of people "create value" while forgetting about the people building your stuff, growing your food, extracting your oil (and killing the planet in…

>forgetting about the people building your stuff, growing your food, extracting your oil (and killing the planet in the process), moving your stuff around, nursing people, building your house, installing your AC, shipping your amazon packages, What do you mean "forgetting"? I pay those people for their services out of the money I earn. They're not doing all those things out of the goodness of their hearts, they worki…

I would say, to be pedantic, that your pay isn't set by the market "really," because of market distortions of all kinds.

Like doctors are highly paid for a number of reasons one of which is cause the APA restricts the number of doctors that can be trained, but also because of the nature of the finance of healthcare in America, and the cost of training doctors. None of those is determined purely based on the market really.

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