Outschooling • Hacker News Board

Re: Outschooling

#111

Post by merpnderp » Thu, May 30, 2019, 12:30 AM UTC

carlob wrote: post #70

surge wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most research? What research? By research do you mean an opinion piece you read once? Most research says homeschoolers perform massively better on average then public school kids do. So what research addresses that, if kids perform not as well in public school. https://www.dailyinfographic.com/homeschooling-by-the-number...

It is well known that school results are mostly explained by socioeconomic status (I read somewhere up to 75% of the variance can be explained that way). So if you don't take into account other factors that graph doesn't prove anything other than people who can afford private schools and homescholing are on average richer. My guess is that the rest of the data can be explained by smaller class sizes and better resour…

Socioeconomic status doesn’t explain why parents with only high school degrees who homeschool in the US will still have kids performing at the top of public school kids’ scores, while strong parental involvement does. Over and over the only truly meaningful external factor in student performance is parental involvement, of which homeschooling is highly indicative.

Re: Outschooling

#112

Post by inetknght » Thu, May 30, 2019, 12:32 AM UTC

GuiA wrote: post #5

inetknght wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's concerning that those actively involved parents are removed from the public school system. As someone who was homeschooled: it's extremely scary. I've missed out on social experiences and also on actual education and consider myself generally worse-off for it. Consider: Texas permits homeschooling and has effectively zero oversight. How many homeschooling families are also anti-vaxxers or feed into anti-govern…

I can read your comment in several, slightly conflicting, ways: - homeschooling is in practice mostly undesirable, because it overwhelmingly attracts people with fringe beliefs who are not going to act in their child's best interest - homeschooling is at a systemic disadvantage because parents that care enough about their kid's education to take an active part in it have no voice in the public schooling system (my un…

> homeschooling is in practice mostly undesirable, because it overwhelmingly attracts people with fringe beliefs who are not going to act in their child's best interest

I am not saying that homeschooling in practice is mostly undesirable. Instead, there can be undesirable elements to it. And those undesirable elements are neither common nor easy to spot.

Nor am I saying that it overwhelmingly attracts people with fringe beliefs who aren't going to act in their child's best interest. I certainly think there's an element of truth to it but don't think it's overwhelmingly the case.

My parents did have legitimate reasons to homeschool some of the family. But I think the legitimate issues were leveraged for, indeed, control. Then: I think they bit off more than they could chew (I have a big family); I don't think they realized just how much effort they volunteered of themselves. At the end of a year, they chose to dig their heels in and continue a broken implementation of homeschool and not addressing the problems that came up, instead of risking putting their kids back into school and losing a year or two in grades and having to answer to the State.

> they contribute as much as other taxpayers to the public school system while not getting anything for it.

Yes. Maybe not everywhere but it certainly seemed to be the case when I was in California until moved '03.

Re: Outschooling

#113

Post by ultrarunner » Thu, May 30, 2019, 12:40 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #104

winchling wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also worth pointing out that the social environment within most schools is far from ideal.

Most schools are just like jails: you are forced to be there, and forced to be there with people who don't want to be there either. A good recipe for disaster as soon as the group becomes large enough. And don't expect the guardians/educators to do anything when someone picks up on you.

> And don't expect the guardians/educators to do anything when someone picks up on you.

Well that's not entirely fair. I know of several situations (including my own) where students were punished for fighting when attacked by other students. You can't say that's not "doing something", I guess.

Re: Outschooling

#114

Post by leetcrew » Thu, May 30, 2019, 12:41 AM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #41

camelNotation wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional educators really only need the training and certification because they are dealing with students at scale. One on one teaching is not remotely the same as teaching in a classroom setting where you have to adapt to multiple learning styles and multiple achievement levels all while using standardized assessment techniques, detailed lesson planning, and classroom management skills. The vast majority of what…

> Professional educators really only need the training and certification because they are dealing with students at scale. Untrue. Any teacher must be familiar with both the subject matter and basic pedagogy, regardless of whether they're teaching one student or many. Yes, there are additional skills necessary when teaching a larger class, but I think you drastically exaggerate how much of a teacher's job that is.

idk what it's like where you live, but in my state all you need to be a teacher is a bachelors degree and a teaching certificate. the degree doesn't need to be related to the subject you teach and you don't need the certification either if you want to teach at a private school.

Re: Outschooling

#115

Post by forgotmypw » Thu, May 30, 2019, 12:42 AM UTC

jpm_sd wrote: post #91

Students can also access "real time group classes taught largely by very experienced K12 teachers" by... going to school.

I completed grades 1, 2, 3, and 5 in the USSR, right before its breaking apart. (I skipped grade 4 not because I was exceptionally smart, but because of the conversion from 10- to 11-year system.)

I went to an average public school, not like a specialized math-heavy school, which also existed.

Then I moved to the U.S. and started 6th grade, decent public school in a major city.

I went to ESL class instead of regular English. Some of the history stuff was new to me. I struggled with integrating and being bullied, though not too badly.

But as far as math and science goes, I was coasting up until 9th grade, when I started high school.

In 8th grade, I was added to the "gifted" program, which basically meant I spent one period a week hanging out with the other gifted kids doing I don't even remember what.

I've been told that while USSR designed its cirruculum to be passable by 80% of the students, in the U.S. it's designed to be passable by close to 100%. Which means that even if your child is smart, they'll be dragging along with the least capable 20% of the school population, doing busywork and being bored, wasting their time instead of learning all they could be at the most capable time of their life.

(Russia's current education system has been stripped and crippled, so it's on par or worse than U.S. now.)

Re: Outschooling

#116

Post by merpnderp » Thu, May 30, 2019, 12:42 AM UTC

carlob wrote: post #73

surge wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're looking at different school systems and using it to leverage criticisms of home schooling in the US. Fix public schooling in the US first, make it so it isn't so easy for home schoolers to out perform. Don't make kids guinea pigs while you figure out how to fix it. Then and only then can you level a critical eye on US home schoolers if the vast majority weren't doing a better job than public schools. I…

> Fix public schooling in the US first This is like people saying to fix the bus system before adding bus lanes that would increase congestion for cars. The system is broken because smarter kids or kids who come from more educated families are escaping it. The effect is that public schools in the US are becoming like public transportation in the US: only those who don't have any other option are using it.

A kid does not have the right to another kid’s education by forcing him to attend the same school and act as his crutch. If you believe they do, you should march down the the nearest hospital and offer up a kidney, a lung, and a lobe of your liver, because that’s what your theory of justice leads to.

Re: Outschooling

#117

Post by leetcrew » Thu, May 30, 2019, 12:44 AM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #60

surge wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Pedogogy doesn't matter as much as you think it does, because you learn it from your kid what works pretty fast. Most of the pedogogy is crap and outdated and you have to choose one and stick with it for the class where with homeschooling you can try many different teaching methods without having to get approval from the school board, and even then you have the pick the one that works for most students but leaves…

> most teachers choose a career that requires a 4 year degree plus certification that won't make enough to live comfortably or earn them over what a standard retail job makes Yeah, I know, it's not a "rational" choice by Randian standards. To some, that means they deserve contempt. To me, it suggests that they have other motivations that might deserve some respect.

I have a lot of respect for teachers who are in it for the long haul. it's definitely not an easy job. that said, most of the teachers I know personally decided to become teachers after graduating with an bachelors in art history and realizing it was going to be pretty hard to find work as a museum curator. altruistic or pragmatic?

Re: Outschooling

#118

Post by ultrarunner » Thu, May 30, 2019, 12:44 AM UTC

EdwardDiego wrote: post #66

up_and_up wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife was from a very competitive school district which forced overachievement and I got beat up by bullies in a small town school. Besides the personal anecdotes, 1. we felt like time was passing too quickly and wanted to have them around, we wanted to be together basically. 2. with 3 kids my wife hasnt been able to work (her line of work is not well paying), so it made sense to start homeschooling vs private scho…

Congratulations on doing it right with regards to socialisation. Sadly, many homeschoolers (in my anecdotal experience) do it wrong - they tend to be the same ones who homeschool for religious reasons.

Also anecdotal, but I suspect that the religiously motivated homeschoolers were already going to suffer socially, homeschooled or not. The only way that government schools would have altered the outcome was by providing peers to challenge their (often poorly-supported) religious positions. Assuming the methodology bordered on bullying, I'm not sure that would necessarily lead to an outcome of better socialization. I could certainly be wrong, though.

Re: Outschooling

#119

Post by surge » Thu, May 30, 2019, 12:46 AM UTC

somethoughts wrote: post #26

The one I would be interested in would be "home-after-schooling". I would love to have more resources to help support K-8 students learn how to do original research for science fairs, MOOCs for non-math subjects and programming. Basically Khan Academy type courses that can enable teaching economics, literature, philosophy to a 12 year old. The interesting non-math stuff for Khan Academy doesn't start until 9-12th gra…

Kids are exhausted enough after 6 hours of public school, 3 hours of home work and any extra curriculars, don't screw up what little childhood freetime they have left in the current system with home after school.

Re: Outschooling

#120

Post by barry-cotter » Thu, May 30, 2019, 1:07 AM UTC

momokoko wrote: post #38

I think EdTech forgets that student success has much less to do with schooling(home or otherwise). This is why education has bounced from trend to trend over the last 50 years. Because we constantly think we've found a silver bullet, but then after a decade or so, we realize it was once again correlation. If you really look at the data, student outcomes essentially boil down to parents and the students themselves. We…

Improvements in teaching are very unlikely to change the rank ordering of who learns fastest/most/best. It can absolutely change how much I’d learned and when individual students learn something. Online teaching is far more conducive to mastery learning and ability grouping than offline education. Look at Lambda School for an example. If you have large cohorts starting on a regular basis you can have some people progressing slower than others but ensure they get there eventually in a way that’s not going to happen in a normal classroom environment. The scope for individualised instruction in an environment where you have classes of 15-30 students is limited. If you have 200 students starting every four weeks you can divide them into ten 20 person classes based on where they are in the curriculum and they’ll do much better than if they were doing things they’d already mastered or for which they just don’t have the prerequisites.

On a more purely technological basis integrating spaced repetition into instructional design would be a massive win. Imagine if people actually remembered what they’d been taught in school instead of having a hazy idea the US Civil War was somewhere in the 1800s.