Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate • Hacker News Board

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#111

Post by Charuru » Mon, Dec 13, 2010, 8:37 PM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #56

I've seen the following argument a thousand times: "Well the marginal cost of a copy of [some digital good] is 0 so it isn't stealing!" That argument is actually completly irrelevant. I took a train the other night, and there were only 2 people in my whole car. The previous week it was packed. Both times I had to buy a ticket at the same price. If you don't see what that has to do with pirating music (or software, or…

"Well the marginal cost of a copy of [some digital good] is 0 so it isn't stealing!"

Many things DO work by this model.

ie, art. Someone may pay for the 1st copy of a Picasso at 100 million dollars (the copy that actually required talent to make), but everyone else gets it at the marginal cost, free.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#112

Post by ThomPete » Mon, Dec 13, 2010, 8:43 PM UTC

bphogan wrote: post #99

ErrantX wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but I think the point being made is that the artists (ignore the record companies, they're idiots) feel as if they are being stolen from. Not just in monetary cost. So; ethical theft?

We've all heard that record companies are evil, but then again they often pre-pay an artist to produce a record, pay for studio time, mixing, mastering, etc. There's a lot that goes into producing music, videos, and books than you see. Open up a book and look at the production credits. People do indexing, typesetting, copy editing, distribution, translations, artwork, and on and on. So if nobody's buying books, those…

The artist pay for the pre-recording not the label. The cost will often be deducted from their share of the revenue.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#113

Post by patrickaljord » Mon, Dec 13, 2010, 8:51 PM UTC

flawawa2 wrote: post #46

rmc wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm waiting for the next set of excuses. I use an operating system (Ubuntu Linux) that doesn't support the main digital music download software and live in a country (Ireland) where choice is limited. There are easily a billion people who can't legally purchase mainstream american music.

Then don't. You don't have to. Listen to the radio. Record the radio (in many countries that is legal). Listen to Youtube or streams. Listen to free music!

Youtube blocks most music videos here (Peru).

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#114

Post by makmanalp » Mon, Dec 13, 2010, 8:59 PM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #56

I've seen the following argument a thousand times: "Well the marginal cost of a copy of [some digital good] is 0 so it isn't stealing!" That argument is actually completly irrelevant. I took a train the other night, and there were only 2 people in my whole car. The previous week it was packed. Both times I had to buy a ticket at the same price. If you don't see what that has to do with pirating music (or software, or…

I agree with all of this, but what bothers me is that the record industry is using a form of reverse pie fallacy in which they claim that they would have had X amount of sales, if only those darned pirates hadn't stolen the music. A more sophisticated (but still fallacious) version goes: Album Y has been pirated Z times, therefore we lost Z * (retail price of the album).

This is blatantly wrong. They do not know that they would have sold X albums if it weren't for pirates. Furthermore, if a person pirates an album, it does not mean that they would have bought it if they couldn't pirate it or if they were more ethical.

The people I know who horde large amounts of music do it exactly because it doesn't cost them - if they had to pay for it they simply wouldn't have even close to that much music. They wouldn't go and buy all the same albums. They also wouldn't be enthusiasts at that scale.

tl;dr: Fallacies exist on both sides.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#115

Post by relix » Mon, Dec 13, 2010, 9:00 PM UTC

xtho wrote: post #50

> “Books are priced too high” I don't think he (the "pirat") has an idea of how much time has to be invested in the production of good books. I personally think that books are drastically undervalued and that people are not willing to pay enough for good books which has the consequence that they are either served well targeted bestsellers, which can be produced at that price, or junk. Big publishing companies and bes…

I don't think he means books in general, but ebooks, as compared to paperbacks/hardbacks.

I recently bought a Kindle, and every ebook in the Amazon store, without exception, is more expensive than the cheapest paperback version available at Amazon.

That's just ridiculous, and no matter how "close to zero" any marginal costs of a printed book might be - and I'd like some proof of that, because I find it hard to believe that handling, shipping, storage, printing, testprinting, typesetting, missed shipments etc, are so cheap - an ebook should never be more expensive than the same physical paperback.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#116

Post by hxa7241 » Mon, Dec 13, 2010, 9:04 PM UTC

tjr wrote: post #105

hxa7241 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be better to step further back and separate copying from production. People should contribute to production and be able to freely copy what is produced. The two are not really in conflict, in fact they are mutually supportive. Copyright artificially induces this opposition when it has no absolute need to. We now need a better arrangement.

I'm not sure I understand. Can you provide an example?

Any system where support or funding for production does not depend on restricting copying: those should be inspirations for alternatives. Open-source/free software, Wikipedia, the BBC, science/academic research . . .

The internet is a communication device, and we should be using to its max. All questions about distinguishing different kinds of copying, and whether one is moral or not, do not reach the real heart of the matter. All copying (assuming good stuff) is good, ultimately, and we ought to fit our commercial system to that, not the other way around.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#117

Post by rmc » Mon, Dec 13, 2010, 9:12 PM UTC

flawawa2 wrote: post #46

rmc wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm waiting for the next set of excuses. I use an operating system (Ubuntu Linux) that doesn't support the main digital music download software and live in a country (Ireland) where choice is limited. There are easily a billion people who can't legally purchase mainstream american music.

Then don't. You don't have to. Listen to the radio. Record the radio (in many countries that is legal). Listen to Youtube or streams. Listen to free music!

So, there's no way I can purchase music then? So there's nothing unethical about me pirating, then? Since it can't be a lost sale? That argument doesn't fly with the people who own the copyright and your argument doesn't fly with me.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#118

Post by hxa7241 » Mon, Dec 13, 2010, 9:17 PM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #69

chc wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're repeating the big media newspeak. "Breaking the law" is not identical to "stealing." If you enter a place you are not allowed to be but do not deprive anybody else of property already in his custody, you are committing trespass and any number of other crimes, but you are emphatically not stealing. So please correct everyone you see making that argument.

> ""Breaking the law" is not identical to "stealing."" You are technically correct (according to Futurama, the best kind of correct). But you're also repeating the digital-communist newspeak also. "Piracy is not stealing" is not identical to "Piracy is not wrong". I realize that's not the position you're trying to push, but bear in mind that "Piracy is not stealing" is way too often used to justify piracy itself, as…

They really do have a different moral status though. Copyright and IP are purely pragmatic commercial arrangements. Any wrongness in infringement comes solely from it simply being against the rules of a particular game we have decided to play. If we had different rules, such copying would be harmless.

The copyright-based industries have tried to present infringement as a fundamental moral wrong. It is not. Quite the contrary, communication is good, as people unconciously know and feel.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#119

Post by rmc » Mon, Dec 13, 2010, 9:18 PM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #63

tjr wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked on numerous music recording projects. In many cases, I did everything by myself. In one case, I hired (and learned from) some of the very best in the industry, and between my partner and I, incurred approximately $20,000 in costs... and had an awesome time doing so. But even when I do everything myself, I'm using high-end equipment and software that I've paid thousands of dollars for. It's not free of cha…

Exactly. I'm not a muscian (I'm freaking terrible at anything involved with music), and I have no stake in this game. But software development is the same freaking business model, but for some reason we don't collectively take a stand against piracy.

But software development is the same freaking business model, but for some reason we don't collectively take a stand against piracy.

Free Software/Open Source.

There is a large amount of software developers who have a completly different attitude from the music industry towards people digitally copying stuff.

Re: Author Slams eBook Piracy, Son Outs Her As a Music Pirate

#120

Post by aaronkaplan » Mon, Dec 13, 2010, 9:18 PM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #56

I've seen the following argument a thousand times: "Well the marginal cost of a copy of [some digital good] is 0 so it isn't stealing!" That argument is actually completly irrelevant. I took a train the other night, and there were only 2 people in my whole car. The previous week it was packed. Both times I had to buy a ticket at the same price. If you don't see what that has to do with pirating music (or software, or…

You're attacking a straw man. Here are some arguments that people do sometimes make, and that somewhat resemble your straw man, but are less ridiculous:

- Making a copy of a file isn't stealing because it doesn't deprive anyone else of the good.

- When vendors claim that X pirated units of a product whose retail price is Y amount to X*Y of lost sales, they are full of shit, because this assumes that all the pirates would have bought copies at full price had piracy been prevented.

- If the product were reasonably priced I would buy it, but it's not, so I steal it. This is the argument of the 19 year old in the article, and probably the one you're reacting to, but it's not the same as your straw man. Your straw man says, "it's not stealing," whereas the real person says "yeah, it's stealing, but it's stealing from thieves, so it's morally acceptable."

I don't mean to advance any of these arguments personally, just to point out that they're arguments that some people actually make, unlike the one you so convincingly refute.