All this discussion about employee/contractor situation or possible collusion won't matter after Uber/Lyft close this loophole and this can be done easily. It makes no sense that the drivers would allow the reporter to publicize this trick.
Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges
111–120 of 303 posts
Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges
#112I'm not a lawyer, nor do I agree with what I'm about to say, but the drivers need to be careful, because they might run afoul of collusion. Since they are all independent contractors, they are "rivals" in the same industry, so with all of them cooperating to increase fares for their benefit (and based on my understanding of the law), they are technically colluding.
But are they allowed to set a price? If the app doesn't allow them to do it then maybe it is slightly different story. Maybe it is Uber of Lyft who manipulates the prices by punishing those who doesn't want to accept low-cost rides.
Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
Isn't that exactly what you get to do with contractors? One of your criteria in picking a contractor is showing up. Kind of a problem, I'm told, with housing contractors. And as with housing contractors, the best way to get them to show up is to offer more money than their other offers.
Yea, the definition of contractor that often gets thrown around in these discussions seems to exclude most real world contractors. I’ve worked as a construction contractor and a software contractor, and I did not get to set my hours in either one. It seems like the legal system is out of touch with the world of business. The real definition of a contractor may be “an employment relationship in which the worker does n…
The ability to set hours isn’t the only distinction, but it’s an easy and obvious one to test. Using your own tools is another one: it’s a rare deck builder who shows up and asks to borrow your saw.
That said, there is a lot of grey area and it’s also true that a lot of jobs are misclassified. That doesn’t make the classification meaningless though, and I would thrilled if governments were more proactive about making sure people go the rights they’re entitled to.
Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
Drivers are not ready and willing to drive. They are ready and willing to drive for a higher rate . Lyft and Uber provide that higher rate when there is sufficient demand and insufficient supply. Working as designed, yo. Multi-billion-dollar companies do not need you to cape up for them. Somehow, somehow , they will survive against those mendacious poor people who have found a way to represent their requirements to t…
Where did I say this was a good or bad thing? Nowhere. I described things that could happen if the practice becomes too exploitative. Also, I can see the argument that it violates the TOS for the drivers. The drivers agree to drive for the price determined by the service. They are then using exploits to manipulate that price. If they don't want to drive for X fare, then they shouldn't be in their car. And this is an…
> Where did I say this was a good or bad thing? Nowhere.
You didn't. But nobody perturbs that many electrons if they don't have an opinion on the topic (and I'll be real, I've got one too but I'm not trying to cloak it in neutrality). And then we get this:
> In some way, the passenger is being taken advantage of.
This is nonsensical. It also proves out the hunch I expressed from my last post, so thank you for doing the legwork for me.
As to why it is nonsensical: the passenger is in no way being "taken advantage of", except insofar as Lyft and Uber already commit obvious fuckery on the regular. The prices are "being manipulated" all over the place--I get different prices on Uber than my girlfriend does when we're standing next to one another!--and there is no expectation that "outside forces" (oooooh) are somehow kept out of it.
The passenger is being given a price at which they will be transported. That's it. The driver is being given a rate at which they will do the transporting. That's it. If they both agree, the ride happens and Lyft/Uber take their cut. This is how a two-sided market maker is supposed to work.
I don't know why it would be okay for Uber and Lyft to fiddle-fart with prices but it's not okay for drivers to say "I won't drive for less than $X". Why are you choosing to shade, to preferentially "see the argument" against poor people when it means that they might make a little money using a market the way a market is supposed to work?
Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges
#115I can think of a ton of technical ways Uber and Lyft can combat this. And they probably will. And they'll be short term happy and long term foolish. Because they're treating the symptoms, not the cause.
I assume you're proposing that the cause is 'low' wages. So let's say drivers earned an average of $50/hour. This would put them in an income bracket such that they earn more than 95% of Americans. Do you think that people would not then exploit a legal angle to bump their earn up to let's say $70/hour, if they found out a way to do so?
Then a standard taxi would be cheaper.
Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges
#116I've definitely experienced this at DCA, and it's worth nothing as well that it sometimes take hours to get out of the airport due to the insane traffic jams right around the terminals and in the parking garages. DCA has gone from my favorite airport to literally my least favorite over the last year or so. I've been using Dulles instead even though it's way less convenient.
Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges
#117Both companies claim that drivers are independent contractors who can drive when and where they want, so how can they say that these drivers are in violation of anything?
Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
They should just form a union. Contractors can form one - they don't get all the privileges (for example, the employer isn't legally required to bargain with them, and can retaliate against strikes) but it'd probably permit this sort of short-term work stoppage.
Depends on the state, but federally, independent contractors are excluded from the right to form or participate in unions as defined by the National Labor Relations Act. EDIT: independent contractors are excluded from the protections of their union actions.
https://cwa-union.org/about/rights-on-job/legal-toolkit/my-e...
> As an independent contractor, the terms and conditions of the work you perform are set out in a contract between you and the employer. Even though you are not considered an “employee” under federal labor law, you may still join a union. However, you should keep in mind that a unit of independent contractors is not subject to the same privileges and protections as a regular union bargaining unit. For example, an employer is not under the same obligation to bargain with a union regarding contract terms for an independent contractor that it is to bargain over issues affecting its regular employees. Also, an independent contractor who went on strike would not be protected from employer reprisals under the National Labor Relations Act.
Plenty of contract plumbers, electricians, etc. are members of unions.
Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's probably a balance to be struck, because part of the ridesharing design's efficiency is that if demand drops they can drop their rates paid to drivers, and the drivers who don't want to drive at those prices will stop. So if Lyft starts to say "we always want X drivers available as a base load, and we'll open up to contractors to fill in the demand spikes" it might make the contractor role too unreliable for…
Can we please stop referring to these services as "sharing"? Lyft actually started as a company that coordinated the sharing of rides, i.e., no money was involved. But the "sharing" pretense has long since past for all of these companies.
We need a new word for "taxi companies with cute apps, unsustainable pricing/wages and lots of Silicon Valley venture capital propping them up" to distinguish them from old-school taxi companies if we're gonna quit saying "rideshare".
Any suggestions?
Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
Where did I say this was a good or bad thing? Nowhere. I described things that could happen if the practice becomes too exploitative. Also, I can see the argument that it violates the TOS for the drivers. The drivers agree to drive for the price determined by the service. They are then using exploits to manipulate that price. If they don't want to drive for X fare, then they shouldn't be in their car. And this is an…
When these services first introduced surge pricing, they told us that it was a good thing because it encourages more drivers to get on the road and take care of demand. It’s working exactly as designed.
The drivers are already there though. They've already committed to taking these passengers.
Imagine walking up to a taxi and having them say "wait 5 minutes until I can charge you more".