They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia • Hacker News Board

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#111

Post by sonnyblarney » Sun, May 12, 2019, 4:10 PM UTC

jen20 wrote: post #53

mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

> developers have an easy life, getting into work whenever they choose Why exactly is that the wrong reason?

Well it's wrong if people have that expectation and it's not the reality.

It's also problematic in a world wherein people have to work together, which is why most jobs don't allow one to 'work when one chooses' although that is obviously the case in some scenarios.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#112

Post by Kalium » Sun, May 12, 2019, 4:11 PM UTC

jdhn wrote: post #107

coconut_crab wrote: post #83

My experience with code bootcamp trained developers is positive, due to the follow reasons: - Most of them have engineering background: electrical engineering, civil engineering, petroleum engineering. - Since they lack formal education in IT, they have to train twice as hard, which our company encourages (2 months of probation = 2 months of training, it's almost impossible to find developer with Scala experience aro…

>Most of them have engineering background: electrical engineering, civil engineering, petroleum engineering. That's great, but what about the people who come from a non-engineering background? I feel like people with a technical background will be able to pick up coding a lot quicker than people who don't have a lot of engineering aptitude. >We work with the Bootcamp to improve their program: giving reference to 'har…

> That's great, but what about the people who come from a non-engineering background? I feel like people with a technical background will be able to pick up coding a lot quicker than people who don't have a lot of engineering aptitude.

You're almost certainly correct. It's perhaps possible that the bootcamp model, which can work well for people with solid technical backgrounds, might not work equally well for others.

That's fine. Not every tool is a fit for every job. A hammer is very useful, but it makes a poor saw.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#113

Post by jen20 » Sun, May 12, 2019, 4:14 PM UTC

mothsonasloth wrote: post #79

hatchnyc wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been my experience, and I'll add I have noticed there is a massive disconnect from the reality of just how complicated modern software is. I remember beginning my career what I think used to be a quite common experience of being quite a bit overwhelmed by how much I had to learn, very aware that I didn't even know what I didn't know and this definitely motivated me. This awareness is completely absent from 1…

Completely agree, I would like to blame it on this dichotomy of "frontend and backend development". Most of the bootcampers did three months of "frontend" work and are oblivious to what goes underneath in the murky world of business logic and services. Until they have been able to demonstrate they are confident in: * Presenting data to a user * Validating inputs * Making correct requests and understanding the interac…

> Then they will remain a junior developer and I think that will be many of these bootcampers fate

This is a fair assessment - not just of boot camp developers but of all developers. I don't think I agree that it is a problem that some people working as a junior developer today will never become a Technical Fellow, however.

I've personally found (especially in the "enterprise") that many senior developers do not actually have fifteen years of experience - but one year of experience fifteen times, and are functionally junior developers with the wrong title. Educational background does not tend to be an indicator of this.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#114

Post by sonnyblarney » Sun, May 12, 2019, 4:16 PM UTC

gingabriska wrote: post #58

RhodesianHunter wrote: post #5

I know I'll catch flak for this, but where did this idea that "anyone can learn to code" come from? Coding requires a certain drive and curiosity, without delving into the capability side. What makes anyone think that they can take a bunch of people who never or barely passed highschool and have been working in a mine for a decade+ and teach them this? By all means subsidize a laptop and point them at some great onli…

I've no idea why coding should be anymore special than basic reading/writing skills. Code is a way to express solution to the problem which a computer can execute. If you can learn any language, you can learn coding too. Sure, not everyone can understand intricacies of the algorithm design and data structure gotchas but some of that can come as experience and curiousity. Question worth asking is that, does everyone n…

"I've no idea why coding should be anymore special than basic reading/writing skills."

Ok - maybe 'learning to write a few lines of code' - i.e. basic algorithms, should be 'no harder than reading or writing' ... or using Excel ...

But writing software, on the whole is a fairly intellectual exercise. It requires legit curiosity, intelligence, conscientiousness, etc..

"Code is a way to express solution to the problem which a computer can execute."

No, only in it's rudimentary form.

If every program was only 20 lines of code, I would agree fully, but since that's not the case, I don't agree at all.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#115

Post by sonnyblarney » Sun, May 12, 2019, 4:18 PM UTC

vsskanth wrote: post #46

erentz wrote: post #20

The “anyone can code” and “just learn to code” phenomena needs to die in a fire. This reminds me of many other scams in our education system, it’s disgusting how much money is being leeched out of people on private “schools”. This “anyone can code” idea is actually an easy thing to test if we were serious and honest about it. But we are not. And I believe boot camps give a false sense that more people are successful…

As a counter-point, I would like to point out India's IT industry. When the IT outsourcing industry was booming and there was a serious programmer shortage, outsourcing firms such as Infosys, Cognizant, Tata would hire college graduates en-masse regardless of major (like, entire batch of 20XX would get a job offer). They would then spend 6 months actually training them and weeding out poor performers. The ones who ge…

Yeah, this is not a bad thing though.

Taking good students, with good educations and putting them through 6 months applied training ... and getting rid of the fluff ...

My gosh man this would result in better developers than we get out of 'good schools' today! (As I think there's a gap between academia and the applied world of software).

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#116

Post by SamReidHughes » Sun, May 12, 2019, 4:19 PM UTC

ConnorLeet wrote: post #86

Sharlin wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the problem-solving, not the language part, that requires special aptitude. You might speak a dozen languages but it doesn’t help if you don’t know what to say. Besides, have you tried to learn a new natural language in adulthood? A bootcamp won’t get you far. And natural languages are really forgiving in comparison because you’re communicating with a human-level intelligence that’s used to inferring meaning fro…

Are problem solving skills something you are born with? To me the mismatch is that a traditional CS student spends more time practicing problem solving via homework and exam/exam prep.

> Are problem solving skills something you are born with?

Yes, most definitely.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#117

Post by tarsinge » Sun, May 12, 2019, 4:22 PM UTC

mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

> who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps.

Seems like the kind of company which would be relying on interns and juniors (that need training too) instead of hiring seniors engineers, they just found a way to make it look good.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#118

Post by caprese » Sun, May 12, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #106

caprese wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can pretend for an interview I’ve blended in pretty well all through upper management

Two thumbs up! If you can move fast and talk loud, no one need notice you have never produced a deliverable.

well I'm actually pretty good at my job and work with integrity

but arbitrary screening questions for interviews and silly coding exercises have no bearing on that

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#119

Post by ip26 » Sun, May 12, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

Uptrenda wrote: post #101

mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

Honestly, I agree with you. I don't mean to discourage anyone trying to learn software engineering but: IMO its something that takes years to learn the fundamentals. There are so many small details that aren't what you expect them to be that I see no way bootcamps could prepare you. Things like how file systems work, what system calls do -- how write() works -- does it write data or not? How do blocking / non-blockin…

Consider however that not all software jobs require all that knowledge. As software spreads, not all new software jobs are rockstar positions. A lab full of scientists, for example, might benefit a lot just from a couple people who know how to operate a database and do some basic data crunching. Or, consider the vast number of people who get their job done in Excel today, who don't need to call write() but could do their job better & faster if they switched to Python.

If the future is software, then there will be places for PhDs & bachelors, but also for associates and even bootcamps/certs. Even people who are not deeply passionate about software can make a useful contribution. Putting men on the moon took a lot more than just rocket scientists.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#120

Post by Kalium » Sun, May 12, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

auston wrote: post #57

Any ideas on how we (HN) could help these people that dealt with Mined Minds? Perhaps some free remote tutoring? Some interview coaching? Resume review? A whole lot of bagging on coding boot camps, the founders of Mined Minds & people looking for an easier life. I’m game to help myself! If anyone knows those folks & they want some help - I’m happy to connect & spend time doing any of the above!

It might be worth considering that the underlying question - does this model even work at the scale it was sold as? - goes unanswered.

With that in mind, it sounds like what might be needed is the education they were looking for in the first place. Resume review, remote tutoring, and coaching are great ideas, born of a genuine blossoming of kindness and compassion. It may be possible that these well-meant ideas could be of perhaps slightly limited value for people who, based on the contents of the article, seem to have roughly as much marketable knowledge of Ruby as they did before they started the program.