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Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#111

Post by scarface74 »

bradleyjg wrote: post #93
realusername wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not go as far to say it's dying but it's heavily slowing down for sure. First because of the big move out of the "entreprise" software and secondly because of Oracle legal team. It's definitely due to the licensing that Android is switching to Kotlin for example.

PagerDuty, Zoom, Slack —- seems like a great time for enterprise software.

PagerDuty - losing money

https://medium.com/memory-leak/pagerduty-s-1-analysis-an-ipo...

Zoom - a tiny net income of 7.6 million

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/22/video-conferencing-company-z...

Slack - losing money.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-slack-ipo-idUSKCN1S21FD

So why is it a “great time” for enterprise software?

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#112

Post by cmiles74 »

threeseed wrote: post #51
bborud wrote: post #41

Oracle makes Java a risk factor in all projects. I stopped approving new Java projects in my team 2 years ago after we switched to Go. This wasn’t a decision we took lightly and it took almost a decade for me to be comfortable with leaving Java behind. But it is the right thing to do. Oracle is not trustworthy.

Strange attitude to take when you can just target OpenJDK and then it is completely irrelevant what Oracle does or does not do. The fact is that every single one of the largest companies has some Java or Scala code within their core platform. And none of them have ever raised Oracle as a risk.

In this case we have Oracle using the JEE namespace discussion as leverage to try to force the Eclipse Foundation to distribute their VM with their products.

If Oracle had succeeded, would that mean that every developer that downloaded the Eclipse IDE would be subject to Oracle's licensing and a possible audit target? I believe that it would.

https://developer.ibm.com/javasdk/support/commercial-licensi...

Everyone should move off of Oracle's VM. I think Oracle is going to be more agressive in discuraging this or making it more difficult.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#113

Post by [deleted] »

based2 wrote: post #109

I bet Oracle will have its MS pivot moment, sooner that we think, to face AWS, PostgreSQL, IBM/Red Hat, Pivotal Spring offers... But it was a lot of time wasted: Apache Harmony/Java LibreOffice/OpenOffice MariaDB/MySQL Jenkins/Hudson now Eclipse/Java Right now, they are in sales hurry mode, calling at all occasions technical contacts each time you create a new account to download something on their web site... ... ht…

[deleted]

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#114

Post by scarface74 »

pjmlp wrote: post #96
tatersolid wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most valuable corporation in the world as of this date uses zero Java for anything “core”. Anecdotally, nearly every CIO/CTO I’ve encountered in the last few sees Oracle as a huge risk. Most particularly with regards to databases, which are even sticker than applications which have shorter life cycles.

You mean the servers Apple has running on WebObjects, JEE and Clojure for iTunes, Apple Maps and their iCloud?

iTunes is based on a 17 year old code base with a framework that hasn’t been updated in a decade. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Java.

Seeing that Apple started a project to rewrite Maps back in 2014, hopefully they didn’t decide to rewrite it using WebObjects (https://appleinsider.com/articles/14/07/01/apple-overhauling...)

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#115

Post by boshomi »

threeseed wrote: post #44
rbanffy wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hot parts we can implement in C. There's not much overhead in crossing over to native code.

So I have to learn Python and C. With C being an incredibly difficult language to get right. So difficult that languages like Go and Rust were invented.

Consider Nim language, it compiles to c.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#116

Post by scarface74 »

threeseed wrote: post #40
DonHopkins wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time to switch to C#. Funny how it took Oracle to do what C# originally intended to do: kill Java.

You can't be serious. JVM is still the best platform for any type of back-end application. It has the widest array of libraries, is proven to run on any type of hardware and comes standard on every OS and every cloud instance. .Net is a great platform and all but it still hasn't done enough to really merit switching teams. Especially when you have Scala, Kotlin, Clojure etc to pick from.

Java doesn’t come standard on Windows, MacOS, or iOS. It’s also not standard on Windows based EC2 instances.

But even if it does come “standard” on Linux. How many people actually count on the installed instances of runtimes and don’t install their own tested versions?

For instance, Python 2.7 comes on a Windows EC2 AWS instance.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#117

Post by cmiles74 »

DonHopkins wrote: post #8
Illniyar wrote: post #2

Well, mmm, good riddance? I suppose this will cause a lot of hardships to a lot of people who need to maintain JavaEE, but the fact that Java EE is no more is nothing but good. It is a nightmare case of overengineering.

Time to switch to C#. Funny how it took Oracle to do what C# originally intended to do: kill Java.

I think every Java developer should be familiar with C# and dotNet Core. There is a lot of similarities between the languages and it will be easy for any Java developer to pick up.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#118

Post by scarface74 »

pjmlp wrote: post #22
DonHopkins wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time to switch to C#. Funny how it took Oracle to do what C# originally intended to do: kill Java.

First C# needs to get into all the platforms where there is a Java compiler. And a proper story for something similar to Swing, not even considering JavaFX here. There is Xamarin, but again, the platforms with Java compilers available. And I am stating this as someone that works daily within .NET eco-system.

Which platform doesn’t have a C# compiler that matters?

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#119

Post by [deleted] »

dtech wrote: post #52
_lbaq wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying, the JVM and Java moves faster forward than ever, Graal is about to go 1.0, a bunch of very interesting (very) low latency GCs are in the pipe (for example ZGC and Shenandoah) and lots of other interesting projects like Valhalla promise to keep the JVM relevant for the next 20 years. Oracle have made some moves to monetize on parts of its investment…

Too little too late, and I highly doubt that (5-year-old) Valhalla will deliver even one of the promised features (value types) in the next 3 years. Remember that the original plan was to have all Valhalla features in Java 10. Java/JVM was in the ideal position to dominate the software world for the whole 21th century 15 years ago. Instead they did an IE6 and stagnated for so long that their competitors became plain…

[deleted]

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#120

Post by marak830 »

agumonkey wrote: post #92
marak830 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I'm not joking, but I am a casual coder. I have only learnt what I need to do, to do certain things. Which compared to most here isn't that much. (See my other responses, I'd actually love some input there, just wish I had more time to learn) Edit: as to the reference to the last part of your comment, I have only been using what I knew to do the job I needed, I'm not a full time coder so I can't search the l…

What do you mean ? you only learned C# so you could work and have no time to learn things like F# ?

(you're correct to an extent) I learnt c# to do what I wanted in my free time, I haven't had time to look into alternatives. C# does what I need, and I either work out how to do what I need with that, or I can't do it (I'm not a full time coder, so I don't have time to research, learn and recode what I have done to something new)
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