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Is everything an MLM

annehelen.substack.com

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Re: Is everything an MLM

#111

Post by AlexCoventry »

seibelj wrote: post #106
cheerlessbog wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often the choices made by "the individual" don't account for externalities that aren't built into the price. Viz landfills, climate change, effect on those with less economic resources.

Are you suggesting it's better to ban individual choice because of the existence of landfills and climate change? The market could effectively and efficiently price those into products, if society would pass a law.

No, only to reduce individual choice when it's clearly pushing away from significantly better global optima than individual choice can achieve.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#112

Post by rectang »

seibelj wrote: post #83
UweSchmidt wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economy that you describe, is the simplified econ 101 version. The market fixes everything, and the invisible hand steers everything to optimality. The human being you describe in your last paragraph is from the same economics textbook: A perfectly rational human being making rational decisions 24/7. Both are simplified models that help doing some undergrad economics...but are absolutely insufficient to explain t…

The alternative to letting the individual determine what they want is to let someone else choose for them. I’m arguing on fundamental principles because the parent commenter is advocating a reorganization of market-based economies. I don’t care how complex the system is. If you aren’t letting me, the individual, determine what is best for my life, then you are coming from a place of superiority and belief that you kn…

> The alternative to letting the individual determine what they want is to let someone else choose for them.

In real-world "free" markets, the poor have their choices made for them by the wealthy.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#113

Post by tomrod »

javajosh wrote: post #69
tomrod wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US I saw engineering labs using PhDs from abroad as almost slave labor. A bit hyperbolic perhaps, but the students were not allowed to progress without the advisor's say so, and the advisors would not allow them to top-author papers they were basically sole contributing. On top of that, between their own work and lab work, they were expected to put in 60 to 80 hours a week. The point is, the power dynamics wer…

>advisors would not allow them to top-author papers they were basically sole contributing As an aside, how is this possible, or legal? Can't a student (can't anyone) submit a paper to a journal on their own? IIRC Einstein was a free-agent when he submitted all those papers in 1905.

It's been several years since I spoke to my friends who went through this, but from what I recall:

- Thread of retribution

- Claims of IP ownership, similar to how corporations in the US make claim to things developed on their time and their machinery

Re: Is everything an MLM

#114

Post by AnthonyMouse »

cheerlessbog wrote: post #97
seibelj wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative to letting the individual determine what they want is to let someone else choose for them. I’m arguing on fundamental principles because the parent commenter is advocating a reorganization of market-based economies. I don’t care how complex the system is. If you aren’t letting me, the individual, determine what is best for my life, then you are coming from a place of superiority and belief that you kn…

Often the choices made by "the individual" don't account for externalities that aren't built into the price. Viz landfills, climate change, effect on those with less economic resources.

In principle the market has answers for these.

Landfills are a problem because they're subsidized, because we'd rather provide free/cheap garbage pickup than have people throwing their trash in the street or the ocean. The alternative would be to not subsidize it and then penalize throwing trash on someone else's property with 500 hours of picking up trash. Then there isn't trash in the streets because either people don't put it there or there are plenty of people to pick it back up, and trash collection service costs enough that the plastic junk your plastic junk comes in makes it cost more than the alternative that produces less garbage.

Climate change is the same thing. You're releasing CO2 into somebody else's property, which should require their permission. Good luck getting permission from literally everyone in the entire world; might be easier to buy an electric car.

These problems were created by making concessions from the principle that interactions should be voluntary. If you're creating an externality then whoever is paying for that externality should have to agree to it before you can do it, and they're not going to agree to that without being appropriately compensated.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#115

Post by johnisgood »

rleigh wrote: post #62
johnisgood wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but you get into that contract voluntarily , so you sort of know what you signed up for, and regardless, you have the option to quit. This is why I do not understand the complaints.

No, it's not entirely voluntary. It's a necessity to live. I might be able to pick and choose between several employers, but ultimately I'm going to have to choose one of them. There's a power imbalance between employee and employer, and that will translate into a negotiating disadvantage; the future employee is at a disadvantage here.

> No, it's not entirely voluntary.

In this case, it is not entirely voluntary for the employers either as they need employees for their business to function.

> but ultimately I'm going to have to choose one of them

No, you can become your own employer, for example.

> There's a power imbalance between employee and employer, and that will translate into a negotiating disadvantage

It depends on the state of the market. Right now, the job market is supposedly very good for programmers (employees).

Employers are offering to trade their money in exchange for other people doing some task they want done. If you do not think it is fair trade, then do not do it. You are allowed to grow your own food, or pick berries.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#116

Post by woah »

The argument in this article is that everything is a pyramid scheme, if by “everything” you mean postgrad humanities academia.

Also rails against the evils of capitalism, using examples from a system funded by government grants and loans, and peopled by vehement anti-capitalists.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#117

Post by grawprog »

seibelj wrote: post #68
bluetomcat wrote: post #53

Most of the economy in the so called "developed countries" is nowadays a zero-sum game between winners and losers. Seen from a macro perspective, it resembles a multi-agent system where independent agents compete to provide inessential products and services in exchange for being able to afford basic necessities like housing, food and child care. The finite resource that such companies are fighting for is people's att…

I’m sorry that this is your world view, because it is deeply flawed and focusing on such cynicism leads to depression. Most of HN lives in a tech bubble where everyone is focused on building semi-useless software like you describe. However the majority of society still does “normal” things like construction, manufacturing, sales, etc. and some sort of fundamental reorganizing of society on non-market principles doesn…

Almost every job i've worked outside of tech is pretty much some non essential service or product. Right now I turn mountains into countertops and fireplaces using large, expensive machines so rich people can have stone inside their homes. I provide nothing that is essential, yet every day customers spend tens of thousands of dollars and my spends thousands so rich people can have nice shiny stone inside their homes.

In order to get this stone, they literally dismantle mountains one block at a time, slice them into slabs and ship them all over the world. Again, all so rich people can have nice shiny stone in their kitchens.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#118

Post by nine_k »

petra wrote: post #70
seibelj wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry that this is your world view, because it is deeply flawed and focusing on such cynicism leads to depression. Most of HN lives in a tech bubble where everyone is focused on building semi-useless software like you describe. However the majority of society still does “normal” things like construction, manufacturing, sales, etc. and some sort of fundamental reorganizing of society on non-market principles doesn…

>> It’s not on someone else to tell me what I should and should not want. That's true. >> If I desire it and a company provides it for a price, it doesn’t matter that the smart refrigerator is a waste in your vision. People are not good at knowing(or at least acting) on what will make them deeply happy, happier over the longer term, or even just happy. Psychological research tells us that. Add to that the power of ad…

I suppose that educating people, especially helping the understand themselves better, is key here.

Letting, or expeting, someone else to make you deeply happy when you don't know what would be it yourself leads to the agency problem. That is, how that someone else knows what your best.interest is, and why observe it.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#119

Post by foxhop »

cheerlessbog wrote: post #103
foxhop wrote: post #71

My goal is to extract as much money as I can out of the tech industry, without compromising on my values. While I'm doing that I'm trying to build up a small food forest which will help me avoid the pyramid altogether. My only hope for humanity is for at least 30% of the population to do the same, but I'm not holding my breath.

What is a food forest?

It's an agriculture practice which mimics natural forest for food production.

Re: Is everything an MLM

#120

Post by ericd »

cheerlessbog wrote: post #110
seibelj wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting it's better to ban individual choice because of the existence of landfills and climate change? The market could effectively and efficiently price those into products, if society would pass a law.

No. Did I say that? I like living in a predominantly capitalist society. I would like us to pay more attention to the consequences of consumption. One way to do that is to build it into prices (such as a carbon tax, or upstreaming disposal cost) or by regulation. Building cost into price is actually a very capitalist and arguably libertarian approach as it enables the market to reallocate resources to minimize what w…

So you're not disagreeing with the parent. Yes, a carbon tax would be the way to account for that externality while maintaining individual choice.
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