The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017)

#111

Post by Anarch157a » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 2:23 PM UTC

debaserab2 wrote: post #9

black-tea wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Practically speaking some of today's big companies are branches of the government too.

Name one?

Petrobras, the Brazilian oil company is the largest company in the country by number of employees and revenue. Two of the largest banks here, Banco do Brasil and Caixa Economica Federal are both federally owned and both are larger than their private competitors, thanks to a couple of monopolie they hold (BB has a stranglehold on financing agriculture, and CEF operates the lotteries).

Re: The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017)

#112

Post by pcurve » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

em500 wrote: post #74

em500 wrote: post #68

This is a non-sensical article, relying on some obfuscating math hidden behind "Infl. Adjusted". Inflation adjustments gets pretty fuzzy even in the same nation across a few decades, let alone between different nations across centuries. The article equates the 1637 peak valuation of 78 million guilders with current day 7,900,000 million dollars (not the 79,000 million according to the bad math in the article!). Now c…

As another reference point, an annual salary for low-to-medium skilled labour in mid-17th century Holland was around 100 to 200 guilders, which would be about 20 million USD according to the implied "Infl. Adjusted" conversion in the article (upon which the entire premise of the article rests).

I think using annual salary is a reasonably fair assessment. Assuming it was $50k in today's dollar, the the company's valuation is more reasonable at $20 billion.

Re: The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017)

#113

Post by Anarch157a » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

thousandautumns wrote: post #106

debaserab2 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Name one?

Renault is partially owned by the French Government I believe

The government holds only 15.01% of the company, according to Euronext, just 0.01% more than the second largest investor.

Re: The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017)

#114

Post by RosanaAnaDana » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 2:35 PM UTC

flexie wrote: post #80

It is impossible to compare wealth across centuries. Even really difficult across decades. The owners of the Dutch East India Company endured conditions poor Europeans would find appalling today. I'd say the average welfare client lives a far more powerful, peaceful, safe and comfortable life today. And if by wealth we mean power or abilities, at the height of it's power, whether we talk shipping, trading or ship pro…

Can you dig into that more and explain why it is so difficult to compare wealth across centuries? It would seem to me that you would just find some basic unit to divide against (a dozen eggs; a liter of milk; a sq kilometer of land), and then scale?

Whats wrong with my presumption? I know there must be quite a bit wrong with it, but I'm not familiar with economics whatsoever.

Re: The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017)

#115

Post by Aunche » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

xeeeeeeeeeeenu wrote: post #2

Dutch East India Company had its own colonies and army. Practically speaking, it was a branch of the Dutch government, so comparing it to the contemporary companies doesn't make much sense.

Interestingly enough, the GDP of the Netherlands today is "only" $800 billion, which is a tenth of what the article claims the Dutch East India company is worth.

Re: The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017)

#116

Post by bluGill » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 2:59 PM UTC

RosanaAnaDana wrote: post #114

flexie wrote: post #80

It is impossible to compare wealth across centuries. Even really difficult across decades. The owners of the Dutch East India Company endured conditions poor Europeans would find appalling today. I'd say the average welfare client lives a far more powerful, peaceful, safe and comfortable life today. And if by wealth we mean power or abilities, at the height of it's power, whether we talk shipping, trading or ship pro…

Can you dig into that more and explain why it is so difficult to compare wealth across centuries? It would seem to me that you would just find some basic unit to divide against (a dozen eggs; a liter of milk; a sq kilometer of land), and then scale? Whats wrong with my presumption? I know there must be quite a bit wrong with it, but I'm not familiar with economics whatsoever.

There are many problems, all interrelated.

First, how do you compare eggs? 1 egg cost X then Y now is one measure. A different measure is what % of an average person's wages did would it cost to buy the egg. Oh wait, the average person was a farmer who didn't buy eggs they went to the check coop to get them (even city folks are likely to have kept chickens): the only people buying eggs were rich who may not have paid real value prices. Then we have to ask what egg to compare to today - the common white egg, a brown egg, organic, pasture raised, a farm fresh egg delivered that morning...

Then there is efficiency improvements. Feed is cheap today because one farmer can raise thousands of acres of feed. Automation can feed millions of chickens in a barn...

Then there is supply and demand. A few years ago there was an avian bird flu epidemic and egg prices went up 3x over a matter of a few months and then back down. We know from history that there were famine years which would raise prices. Both of these factors exist outside of inflation and are sometimes not recorded well (do you remember the epidemic?)

Now take the above - any measure - and compare a liter of milk: the differences will not be the same.

That is just trying to compare Apples to Apples. However there is an additional problem: advancing technology. Today most on welfare (this limits us to rich countries, there are still villages of mud huts) have things like air conditioning and fast cars: luxuries that in the past the rich couldn't get any form of equivalent of. Then there are things where there was an analog but it was obviously inferior: TV (500 channels 24/7 as opposed to a live play), washing machines (the maids did laundry but the cost was much higher even if they were slaves)... That is the poor, middle class can afford airplanes trips once in a while.

Re: The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017)

#117

Post by jacquesm » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 3:04 PM UTC

0db532a0 wrote: post #85

jacquesm wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should not be downvoted, it is historically accurate, the VOC imported 10's of thousands of slaves to do work that they were not prepared to pay for. It's a nice example of there being a huge crime at the foundation of huge riches, the VOC was definitely not a clean company by any stretch of the imagination and to this day the names of those who were responsible for the worst atrocities are proudly on display in…

It wasn’t a crime at the time.

The fact that something is 'not a crime' does not mean it can not be obviously wrong.

Re: The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017)

#118

Post by neffy » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 3:08 PM UTC

RosanaAnaDana wrote: post #114

flexie wrote: post #80

It is impossible to compare wealth across centuries. Even really difficult across decades. The owners of the Dutch East India Company endured conditions poor Europeans would find appalling today. I'd say the average welfare client lives a far more powerful, peaceful, safe and comfortable life today. And if by wealth we mean power or abilities, at the height of it's power, whether we talk shipping, trading or ship pro…

Can you dig into that more and explain why it is so difficult to compare wealth across centuries? It would seem to me that you would just find some basic unit to divide against (a dozen eggs; a liter of milk; a sq kilometer of land), and then scale? Whats wrong with my presumption? I know there must be quite a bit wrong with it, but I'm not familiar with economics whatsoever.

That would be the right approach to try, but essentially the problem is, if you want to try and compare wealth, then you have to do it without reference to the monetary unit. Even average working wage is tricky, because most people in that era didn't work for money - they lived off the land, possibly got paid annually with "in kind" payments of housing, food etc. as apprentices or servants.

The monetary unit is very misbehaved, still a problem today, and doesn't behave like other units of measurement. In particular between 1600 and today, you have fractional reserve banking coming in, and playing merry havoc with the money supply; whilst at the same time, the industrialisation that the banking system enables, rapidly increases production, and plays equal havoc with the amount of goods and services being produced. The former increases inflation, the latter reduces it.

If you turn the question round, and ask which company was more powerful - well the East India company and its competitors in their day opened up the sea lanes enabling the propagation of information and people around the world, for good and evil - and Apple and similar are doing exactly the same today. So they're certainly comparable, but simplistically asking which company is richer, is probably missing the point.

Re: The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017)

#119

Post by kiliantics » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 3:13 PM UTC

san_dimitri wrote: post #7

I don’t think it’s a valid comparison. Comparing a company which had an army and used force to occupy and obtain its wealth is not how corporates work today. Today there is deceptive advertising and marketing which are not the same as army and force.

There are plenty of companies using de-facto militaries for their wealth extraction, e.g. in African mines: https://projects.icij.org/fatalextraction/

Colonialism is still alive and kicking

Re: The Dutch East India Co was richer than Apple, Google, Facebook combined (2017)

#120

Post by kiliantics » Wed, Apr 10, 2019, 3:19 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #34

consp wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several companies working, especially in the middle East and Africa, who have private armies (sometimes naively called security companies). The comparison hold up here. And until the government took possession of the company in the early 19th century, it was controlled by it's board, not the government. So yes, it was a company. Sanctioned by, but not reporting to, the government.

Having private security companies makes sense to protect your operations in certain areas where police is deficient. But you will not really see companies invading territories using force these days. That is pretty much the monopoly of government forces.

It's still being done, it just looks a little different. Instead of sending our own army in, you arm/fund rebel groups to invade and then do your bidding. Or, if you're really powerful, you ask the US government and they will send in the CIA/army to "topple a corrupt regime" that was stymying your business pursuits.