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I’m only making business card sized games now

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Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#111

Post by TeMPOraL »

vnorilo wrote: post #100
coldtea wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not sure that it's fair to compare a business card game to AAA games. The depth and complexity just isn't there. It's a randomly generated ski slope that you press left or right to navigate. Fun for a few minutes? Sure. But fun for multiple sessions? Not really. You'd be surprised. People still enjoyed playing Tetris, which has equally minimal mechanics, after decades...

Yes, but come up with equally good minimal mechanics like tetris or go. Once? You are a game design genius. Twice? Has anybody ever done that?

I don't think it's about mechanics.

I still remember some of the games we played on cheap Russian handheld consoles back in the mid 90s. Tetris and snake, but also a racing game that had the same mechanics like Tiny Ski, except upside down and with the logical game board three blocks wide. I had a lot of fun with that racer; I can picture it in my mind more vividly than most of my adult memories.

The three games I mention definitely cross the "affecting life" threshold, in the sense of becoming a small part of the culture - I could ask Polish people my age about these games, and many would remember them. But they didn't become part of the culture because of their mechanics being good in the absolute sense. They did because of availability, context of play, and their mechanics being good compared to other games available at the time.

Were Tetris to come out today, people would look at it, think "what a boring, shallow game" and go back to Candy Crush or whatever is currently the hottest casual.

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#112

Post by mihaifm »

_slyo wrote: post #67
skellera wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did this opinion start taking such a hold? Out of all places, I didn’t think HN would be so anti-games but I’ve been seeing more and more people saying this here. Could someone who feels this way expand on why they have such a negative view on games? Just curious if it’s personal, cultural, or something else? Also, is it directed at complex games with storylines, online multiplayer, or mobile games meant to pull…

My grandfather believes that video games are a "scourge" for young men today. I used to think he was old-fashioned for believing this, but I have come around to agreeing with him. I wasted a large chunk of my life on Counterstrike, Arma 3, DayZ Mod, PUBG, and countless console games. _Thousands_ of hours in total. For me, games were more than an escape or simply a way to unwind. For me, they were a well-hidden addict…

Addicting behaviour is dangerous, but you can get addicted to TV shows just as well. Gaming tends to be more addictive because it actively engages your brain, compared with traditional entertainment (movies, theatre, concerts) which are static, you just sit and watch.

As graphics keep improving I would argue that it might even replace cinema in the future, to some degree.

Also, gaming is just a vast area that it's hard to generalize the whole thing as "scourge". Some games improve critical thinking and can actually be great educational tools. Would you just read a boring history book or activelly engage in the political situation of medieval Europe by playing something like Europa Universalis.

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#113

Post by blihp »

munk-a wrote: post #23
pmiller2 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. The current version of Nethack is ~204k lines of code. Modern AAA games have millions of lines. I don't think there's an order of magnitude more depth to most AAA games than there is in Nethack.

Nethack is 204k lines? That is amazingly bloated for what it is. With dwarf fortress coming in at 381,764 I feel like it delivers a much higher amount of value/line.

Probably not terribly bloated, just old. The language (C), features (probably K&R C), libraries (pitiful compared to today), and portability concerns (nethack was ported to many platforms, DF comparatively few) it originally had to contend with made for a very different world back then. While I'm sure it's been updated/cleaned up over the decades, it probably still carries a lot of that design/baggage from the time it was written in.

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#114

Post by TeMPOraL »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #102
muzani wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To each their own. I don't like Overwatch or games like Fallout simply because of the 1500 hours. I like to complete a game within a month or so. Much longer and it feels like work (work is fun too and if I'm going to get good at something, it should at least pay the bills). My sweet spot would actually be games like Rimworld or Kittens. Something that you can find closure in about 20 hours of gameplay. I feel like g…

20 hours for Rimworld? I've spent nearly a hundred in there and never even got close to endgame. That is a sandbox game without an end - however, one with constant entertainment though. But I feel you about longer games starting to feel like work. I really want to like the Witcher 3 for example, but there's just so much content in there. I've started my playthrough two years ago and still haven't gotten to the end of…

Yeah, 20 hours for Rimworld seems impossible. I never got to the endgame, and I think on one playthrough I had something like 70+ hours before my colony collapsed. The game is hard.

Good to know about ME:A; I was a huge fan of the original ME trilogy, but didn't pick up Andromeda because reviews made it feel like not worth the time and emotional investment. Maybe I'll reconsider.

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#115

Post by TeMPOraL »

_slyo wrote: post #67
skellera wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did this opinion start taking such a hold? Out of all places, I didn’t think HN would be so anti-games but I’ve been seeing more and more people saying this here. Could someone who feels this way expand on why they have such a negative view on games? Just curious if it’s personal, cultural, or something else? Also, is it directed at complex games with storylines, online multiplayer, or mobile games meant to pull…

My grandfather believes that video games are a "scourge" for young men today. I used to think he was old-fashioned for believing this, but I have come around to agreeing with him. I wasted a large chunk of my life on Counterstrike, Arma 3, DayZ Mod, PUBG, and countless console games. _Thousands_ of hours in total. For me, games were more than an escape or simply a way to unwind. For me, they were a well-hidden addict…

> I wasted a large chunk of my life on Counterstrike, Arma 3, DayZ Mod, PUBG, and countless console games. _Thousands_ of hours in total. For me, games were more than an escape or simply a way to unwind. For me, they were a well-hidden addiction. They were an obstacle to reaching my potential. I can't see myself going back to games again and still being as happy as I am now.

Substitute "football" or "drinking with friends" or other outdoor activities for the videogames here. Or "reading a book". It's all the same thing. It's natural for young people today (at least those in more well-off places) to spend absurd amounts of time in a way they later on may consider waste. It's natural for adults to spend some time like this too. We call this entertainment - stuff you do for fun.

Grass is always greener, but you'd probably burn out if you tried to spend those thousand of hours working in your economical self-interest instead. If you were doing something else for fun instead, you could be regretting that today, wishing you played some videogames a bit more. And even if you wouldn't, you would be a different person. The time you spent on videogames - the experiences, the stories, the people - are a part of you right now. And it's not like videogames are unique in enabling escapism; if you look around, plenty of people are escaping from their lives into books, or sports.

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#116

Post by [deleted] »

_slyo wrote: post #67
skellera wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did this opinion start taking such a hold? Out of all places, I didn’t think HN would be so anti-games but I’ve been seeing more and more people saying this here. Could someone who feels this way expand on why they have such a negative view on games? Just curious if it’s personal, cultural, or something else? Also, is it directed at complex games with storylines, online multiplayer, or mobile games meant to pull…

My grandfather believes that video games are a "scourge" for young men today. I used to think he was old-fashioned for believing this, but I have come around to agreeing with him. I wasted a large chunk of my life on Counterstrike, Arma 3, DayZ Mod, PUBG, and countless console games. _Thousands_ of hours in total. For me, games were more than an escape or simply a way to unwind. For me, they were a well-hidden addict…

[deleted]

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#117

Post by TeMPOraL »

mihaifm wrote: post #112
_slyo wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My grandfather believes that video games are a "scourge" for young men today. I used to think he was old-fashioned for believing this, but I have come around to agreeing with him. I wasted a large chunk of my life on Counterstrike, Arma 3, DayZ Mod, PUBG, and countless console games. _Thousands_ of hours in total. For me, games were more than an escape or simply a way to unwind. For me, they were a well-hidden addict…

Addicting behaviour is dangerous, but you can get addicted to TV shows just as well. Gaming tends to be more addictive because it actively engages your brain, compared with traditional entertainment (movies, theatre, concerts) which are static, you just sit and watch. As graphics keep improving I would argue that it might even replace cinema in the future, to some degree. Also, gaming is just a vast area that it's ha…

> Addicting behaviour is dangerous, but you can get addicted to TV shows just as well. Gaming tends to be more addictive because it actively engages your brain, compared with traditional entertainment (movies, theatre, concerts) which are static, you just sit and watch.

The mechanism is strongly dependent on the person. I have much more of a problem with TV shows and fiction books than with videogames, because I'm a sucker for stories. A TV show or a book series can offer couple dozen hours of engaging storyline; most story-based video games are either much shorter, or the story is crap; the book-series-quality videogame storylines are few and far between. That's probably why I never got addicted to multiplayer games. By their nature they have no quality stories, so they bore me out quickly.

(I'm aware that there are people for whom the "active engagement" part is a core ingredient in addiction. I'm just saying that it's not the only mechanism, and different people are susceptible to different things.)

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#118

Post by [deleted] »

faitswulff wrote: post #45
skellera wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did this opinion start taking such a hold? Out of all places, I didn’t think HN would be so anti-games but I’ve been seeing more and more people saying this here. Could someone who feels this way expand on why they have such a negative view on games? Just curious if it’s personal, cultural, or something else? Also, is it directed at complex games with storylines, online multiplayer, or mobile games meant to pull…

> Out of all places, I didn’t think HN would be so anti-games More time spent videogaming means less time spent leetcoding, raising VC, and crushing it as a 10x engineer! /s

[deleted]

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#119

Post by TeMPOraL »

duopixel wrote: post #91
jniedrauer wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an addictive time-suck that eats money for nothing in return. You just described mountaineering, rock climbing, skiing, running a marathon, skydiving, surfing, scuba diving, and just about every other amateur athletic pursuit.

There are clear returns there: immersion in nature, cardiovascular/muscular/mental fitness, tolerance to pain, social bonding, etc.

> immersion in nature

That's a benefit for those who consider it a benefit. I personally don't find this interesting.

> social bonding

This applies to plenty of videogames as well - both directly to multiplayer, and to singleplayer games as social objects for discussions with other people.

> cardiovascular/muscular/mental fitness, tolerance to pain

In the same sense, videogames exercise your reaction time, complex reasoning skills and spatial awareness.

Point being - side effects are side effects, but both videogames and those outdoor pursuits listed are just waste of time, economically speaking.

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#120

Post by II2II »

muzani wrote: post #83
jrockway wrote: post #3

> We all know that modern games have become bloated, weighed down by useless features, achievements, anti piracy measures, piles of assets, and other junk. Not only that but developers are constantly taken advantage of, made to crunch for no pay, mass layoffs, etc. Lives have been ruined, and for what? So you could watch your horse poop or play dominoes in an open world game? I am not sure that it's fair to compare a…

To each their own. I don't like Overwatch or games like Fallout simply because of the 1500 hours. I like to complete a game within a month or so. Much longer and it feels like work (work is fun too and if I'm going to get good at something, it should at least pay the bills). My sweet spot would actually be games like Rimworld or Kittens. Something that you can find closure in about 20 hours of gameplay. I feel like g…

My feelings are somewhat more mixed. Many open world games are wonderful for both the creative output of their developers and because it allows for more creative game play from the player. Closure isn't really a big thing to me since it is all about exploring the worlds and creating my own place in it. If anything, the lack of closure is a bit of a bonus since there is always something to return to.

On the other hand, I am often left questioning the value exploration and creativity in virtual worlds when there are so many alternatives. This is especially true since many of those alternatives can be equally engaging and relaxing.

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