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DeepMind readies first commercial product

ft.com

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Re: DeepMind readies first commercial product

#111

Post by hyperbovine »

genera1 wrote: post #68
hyperbovine wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ll bet you say the same thing when you are forced to pay for groceries before eating them.

Because, as with groceries, you're depriving someone else of content by consuming it. You wouldn't download a car. It's the most disingenuous argument against free media (or piracy etc) that's being thrown around.

> It's the most disingenuous argument

No, it's not. I actually used to write for a newspaper before. These days, they are shoestring operations locked in a constant battle for financial survival. The stories are written by real people who get paid (very little) real money. Take that out of the equation and the news goes away. I deeply value journalism and want it to survive. The level of entitlement evinced by you, gp, and many others on this site as regards the whole "information wants to be free" meme is simply stunning. Like, you really haven't given a moment's thought to what "free" implies here.

Re: DeepMind readies first commercial product

#112

Post by zaroth »

dmix wrote: post #106
zaroth wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be illegal to charge two different people two different prices for the same procedure at the same facility. The whole model of negotiated rates, rebates, etc. needs to go. I also think the concept of networks is bizarre on the face of it. A certified medical provider should be covered to perform procedures in their area of expertise. Period. Personally I like the idea of anyone who wants to be able to buy i…

So the solution is more layers of administration over the prices of the pseudo marketplace?

How is that a fair representation of what I proposed?

I think part of the problem is absolutely opaque, discriminatory, and predatory pricing.

I went to get a basic blood count last month. I gave the lab my insurance card, but they must have copied a number wrong, because when I got the bill they had me down as self insured, and had a bill which said;

  Lab Services     :  $1,541.00
  Patient Adjust   : -$  385.25
  Total Due        :  $1,155.75
I called back and gave them my insurance card and they said ignore the bill a new one will come in the mail.

Last week I got the new bill:

  Lab Services     :  $   17.12
  Insurance Pay    :  $   12.12
  Total Due        :  $    5.00
Yes, I absolutely think it should be illegal to try to bilk a cash carrying customer over $1,000 for a $17 blood count test.

Re: DeepMind readies first commercial product

#113

Post by dragonwriter »

PButtNutter wrote: post #99
dragonwriter wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What we really need is automated administration and billings to really move the needle Right, because every other developed countries gets similar outcomes at lower costs (poor capita, per GDP, or on any other reasonable basis for comparison) because they are far ahead of us on automated administration and billing. There might be countries where that's what's needed, but in the US there's clearly a lot of lower han…

Yeah, so I work at a huge health tech company. A lot of the issue is actually private insurance. Currently in the US the largest health insurance provider is actually medicare/medicaid. When a patient with medicare goes to the doctor, the government says "This is what we will pay for that procedure, no exceptions." The hospital has a choice to either accept that rate, or to lose out on the massive medicare market. Pr…

> Currently in the US the largest health insurance provider is actually medicare/medicaid.

Medicaid is more 50 different insurance providers (it's run by each state—with separate programs for, at least, D.C., Puerto Rico, and Guam, and it's not even a single insurer in every state, e.g., California uses a number of county-level managed care plans as well as a traditional fee-for-service plan.) And all of them are separate from Medicare. Which also is less of a single insurer with common coverage policies than it seems on the face (even excluding Medicare Advantage, which is just publicly subsidized private insurance), since whether any given procedure in reasonable and necessary and therefore covered in any given geogrpahical area in Medicare depends on local coverage determinations made by the private insurer that is the Medicare Administrative Contractor for that region and claim type (there are separate contractors, with different geogrpahical regions, for regular part A&B claims, home health and hospice claims, and durable medical equipment claims.)

Re: DeepMind readies first commercial product

#114

Post by skwb »

wsgeorge wrote: post #87
bufferoverflow wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another high cost of healthcare source is the lack of competition on price. You have zero idea how much each procedure costs. Imagine going to a supermarket where there are no price tags, and you must buy the items once you pick them off the shelf. It's madness.

That's funny. I'm not familiar with the US, but are costs not disclosed at all until after they're incurred?

Costs in healthcare aren't very "real". US providers use what they call a charge master to determine prices. So while an "IV" may show up on the bill, it's not the actual IV you're purchasing when you're in the hospital. Behind that number the hospital has factored in all sorts of cost centers such as part of the nursing staff cost for example. These "costs" therefore do not represent the true actual cost of providing the service, but rather the charge that the insurance company will pay. Insurance companies have a negotiated rate that they will then pay to the hospital. One of the major "hidden" problems in our current healthcare market is that there exists extreme consumer price insensitivity (since most cases are covered by some type of insurance) alongside large consolidation of healthcare providers.

Re: DeepMind readies first commercial product

#115

Post by skwb »

rwmj wrote: post #73

I couldn't read the article, but I wonder if the NHS will get this for free, since we "gave" them all our data in order to train the model.

Depends on the data transfer agreements. However, there are plenty of way you can use public data if even you don't end up using the actual data in the final commercialized model. You just got to be clever. ;)

Re: DeepMind readies first commercial product

#116

Post by davidjnelson »

zaroth wrote: post #101
cure wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worse. If you have insurance, the price tag will be X, and they will pay for some part (most?) of it. If you don't have insurance, the price tag can easily be 100X and it's your responsibility. If you have insurance, but you happened to pick up that can of pepsi from the left aisle (out of network) instead of the right aisle (in network), they won't cover it, and you're stuck with the 100X price. You won't know…

It should be illegal to charge two different people two different prices for the same procedure at the same facility. The whole model of negotiated rates, rebates, etc. needs to go. I also think the concept of networks is bizarre on the face of it. A certified medical provider should be covered to perform procedures in their area of expertise. Period. Personally I like the idea of anyone who wants to be able to buy i…

I agree with you. I wonder what it would take to get rid of those discounts in terms of legislature and how individual voters could work together to fix it. The current system is ridiculous. A $17 procedure should not be billed at $1,200 "because they can".

Re: DeepMind readies first commercial product

#117

Post by logosmonkey »

jarito wrote: post #92
wsgeorge wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's funny. I'm not familiar with the US, but are costs not disclosed at all until after they're incurred?

That's generally true in the states, but it is even worse. You as the patient don't see the actual price before the procedure (unless you ask). After the work is done, you then get a statement saying how much the procedure cost, what your insurance paid and what you owe. All those numbers are opaque and negotiable. Even better, it is common for insurance and the provider to continue sending you bills for months after…

Oh and just wait until you get to the sleazy methodology for charging those rates. Childbirth for instance, the room will be billed to the Mother for the days before the birth. So the Mother probably meets their deductible, then as soon as the child is born the room and all the things in it get billed to the child who now has a new deductible to hit before the insurance company has to pay their full amount.

Re: DeepMind readies first commercial product

#118

Post by logosmonkey »

mikeash wrote: post #96
jarito wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's generally true in the states, but it is even worse. You as the patient don't see the actual price before the procedure (unless you ask). After the work is done, you then get a statement saying how much the procedure cost, what your insurance paid and what you owe. All those numbers are opaque and negotiable. Even better, it is common for insurance and the provider to continue sending you bills for months after…

Even if you ask, they may not be able to tell you. Many places are just not set up to be able to give that information beforehand.

Yeah, mostly a hospital could tell you what they will probably charge but they don't have all the variables to come up with what the actual negotiated charge will be nor what your co-pay would be.

Re: DeepMind readies first commercial product

#120

Post by hopler »

cure wrote: post #94
bufferoverflow wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another high cost of healthcare source is the lack of competition on price. You have zero idea how much each procedure costs. Imagine going to a supermarket where there are no price tags, and you must buy the items once you pick them off the shelf. It's madness.

It's worse. If you have insurance, the price tag will be X, and they will pay for some part (most?) of it. If you don't have insurance, the price tag can easily be 100X and it's your responsibility. If you have insurance, but you happened to pick up that can of pepsi from the left aisle (out of network) instead of the right aisle (in network), they won't cover it, and you're stuck with the 100X price. You won't know…

You missed the part where you chose an in-network can (hospital) that is filled with out-of-network soda (doctors).
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