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Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

nytimes.com

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Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#111

Post by gsnedders »

neuronic wrote: post #85
CydeWeys wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't do non-revenue training flights on full-size jetliners. It's way too expensive. You learn to fly (period) on small planes that can't hold passengers at all, then you train in simulators for a specific model, and then finally you're paired up with a more experienced pilot once you start flying it for real. They definitely did not do the proper training that was merited here, but the proper training is not an…

That makes a lot of sense, but shouldn't simulators be updated/upgraded for significantly different models? One would expect that X hours in a simulator help you adapt to a new aircraft type. I didn't intend to demand economically stupid things like flying an large aircraft empty for training, just wanted to express that as a passenger I want my pilot to know their way around the machine that keeps me 10km above grou…

> That makes a lot of sense, but shouldn't simulators be updated/upgraded for significantly different models?

According to Boeing, the FAA, the EASA, and various other regulators around the world, the 737 MAX is not significantly different to earlier 737s.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#112

Post by olivil »

neuronic wrote: post #85
CydeWeys wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't do non-revenue training flights on full-size jetliners. It's way too expensive. You learn to fly (period) on small planes that can't hold passengers at all, then you train in simulators for a specific model, and then finally you're paired up with a more experienced pilot once you start flying it for real. They definitely did not do the proper training that was merited here, but the proper training is not an…

That makes a lot of sense, but shouldn't simulators be updated/upgraded for significantly different models? One would expect that X hours in a simulator help you adapt to a new aircraft type. I didn't intend to demand economically stupid things like flying an large aircraft empty for training, just wanted to express that as a passenger I want my pilot to know their way around the machine that keeps me 10km above grou…

I work in the simulation industry, and once a simulator is certified for training, you cant "update it" to another model. The customer has to buy a new 737 MAX sim. However, since the 737ng and 737 MAX are common type (meaning that in the eyes of the authorities, if you're licensed for one, you're licensed for both) customers aren't REQUIRED to get a 737 MAX sim granted that they already have a 737ng sim.

Just to clarify: you can udpate a simulator and recertifie it. e.g. in regard to the motion or visual systems etc etc. But to transform a simulator into another aircraft would be beyond economically sane.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#113

Post by sctb »

gjtorikian wrote: post #89
neuronic wrote: post #57

Let's preface this by saying I am aware that cause of the accident has not been determined. Seeing reports of experienced pilots being assigned to 737 MAXs without prior flight experience of this precise model, prompts me to make this comment. As a passenger I expect pilots to fully know the plane they are flying and to previously have flown this exact type and model of aircraft in training sessions without any passe…

You have no idea what you’re talking about. Pilots already warned Boeing about the problem: https://globalnews.ca/news/5055894/u-s-pilots-warned-boeing-... Boeing ignored it.

Please leave bits like “You have no idea what you’re talking about.” out.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#114

Post by partiallypro »

neuronic wrote: post #57

Let's preface this by saying I am aware that cause of the accident has not been determined. Seeing reports of experienced pilots being assigned to 737 MAXs without prior flight experience of this precise model, prompts me to make this comment. As a passenger I expect pilots to fully know the plane they are flying and to previously have flown this exact type and model of aircraft in training sessions without any passe…

Both crashes happened outside the FAA's sphere. I don't see how we can blame them for foreign pilots not being trained well enough.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#115

Post by close04 »

partiallypro wrote: post #114
neuronic wrote: post #57

Let's preface this by saying I am aware that cause of the accident has not been determined. Seeing reports of experienced pilots being assigned to 737 MAXs without prior flight experience of this precise model, prompts me to make this comment. As a passenger I expect pilots to fully know the plane they are flying and to previously have flown this exact type and model of aircraft in training sessions without any passe…

Both crashes happened outside the FAA's sphere. I don't see how we can blame them for foreign pilots not being trained well enough.

FAA is not responsible for the crashes but for not taking any precautionary measure in the US even with reports as the one linked above coming in. Their role isn't just reactive but also proactive. The report above is coming from a US pilot:

> State Reference : US

> B737 MAX First Officer reported feeling unprepared for first flight in the MAX, citing inadequate training.

From another comment below (a simulator industry insider):

> However, since the 737ng and 737 MAX are common type (meaning that in the eyes of the authorities, if you're licensed for one, you're licensed for both) customers aren't REQUIRED to get a 737 MAX sim granted that they already have a 737ng sim.

This is where the FAA could have intervened. Pilots consider them different enough to warrant training so it should have been clear for the FAA too. But they accept this compromise to allow companies to cut costs.

And the scary thing is that a new pilot will also get to train on an old NG sim before flying a (different) MAX plane. Unlike experience pilots, a new one would have little flying experience to fall back on and the FAA allows them to fly a plane after being trained on what might as well be a sim for a different plane.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#116

Post by cjbprime »

CydeWeys wrote: post #106
cjbprime wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is some complicated explanation: the AOA disagree alert requires the presence of the visual AOA indicators, and it's those indicators that are the paid upgrade, and the alert comes along for the ride with them.

Why would AOA indicators be a paid upgrade? Isn't that a pretty fundamental display needed to safely fly the plane? And wouldn't having disparities here between planes create more confusion among pilots?

Airlines and general aviation aircraft have totally ignored AoA as a relevant indicator until very recently. You won't find an AoA indicator in even a modern Cessna.

As a student pilot you're taught about unsafe low airspeeds instead, even though AoA can technically cause a wing to stall at any airspeed, and even though that memorized stall airspeed ($V_s1$) actually varies with factors like plane weight.

AoA is not considered fundamental in commercial aviation, but is considered fundamental in military aviation.

Of course, if your commercial aircraft has a tendency towards stall, that changes the calculus on how important AoA is..

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#117

Post by Tempest1981 »

moftz wrote: post #90
blattimwind wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't link to these on the ASRS site but that's the primary source. https://titan-server.arc.nasa.gov/ASRSPublicQueryWizard/Quer... put in ACN = 1555013.

That was a terrible experience trying to search for that report.

I thought, "how bad could it be". Then I tried it... I don't think I've ever seen a UI like that! Just begs to be redone.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#118

Post by jackhack »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #33
crowdpleaser wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the ethopian air crews are deficient but the inferiority is only apparent when tasked to fly advanced planes?

The selling point of the 737-MAX was that for purposes of type rating it was a plain old 737, no retraining required. So on paper it wasn't advanced at all.

The same chassis, but with larger engines, placed higher on the wing giving rise to different handling characteristics, especially at the edges of the performance envelope. The instrument layout is different and center panel control locations differ. Both of these changes lead to different instrument scan procedures and in the event of a high-stress condition --when seconds count, as instincts and muscle-memory kick in-- it feels like a different aircraft.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#119

Post by salawat »

acqq wrote: post #60
VBprogrammer wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The 737 MAX is unstable inherently for the sake of mileage This is blatantly false. The MCAS system isn't running a PID control loop or anything like that. It's applying stupidly simple logic to its inputs and giving equally simple outputs. At worst you could claim the aircraft is less stable than the original 737. But more specifically I'd say the 737 Max exhibits undesirable control behaviours at the approach to…

As the plane "approaches a stall" the plane is actually in danger . Traditionally, the pilot is trained (on the simulator) to reflexively (every second matters) move the controls to avoid the danger in case of any problems (the different actual problems are simulated and separately trained for). But the new Boeing 737 Max planes exactly at that dangerous moment behave differently to the pilot's input than what the pi…

Excellently put.

The 737 MAX is actually proof that even in the modern day, a basic grasp of philosophical principles is relevant.

Namely, being able to identify when a redesign of a plane becomes substantially different enough to no longer be the plane it was based on anymore.

The MAX blew past that line as soon as the system layout changed such that the pilot's mental models were no longer capable of accurately predicting the behavior of the plane.

Re: Boeing 737 Max Hit Trouble Right Away, Pilot’s Tense Radio Messages Show

#120

Post by [deleted] »

cjbprime wrote: post #37
tuna-piano wrote: post #24

In the likely event that this is another MCAS related crash, I see only two possible reasons: 1. Boeing's suggested process (including flipping the two trim switches and spinning a wheel) does not work for some reason. -or- 2. The Ethiopian pilots did not follow this process. I see #1 as putting a huge, huge amount of blame on Boeing and the FAA - especially given their months of "safe plane" reaction after Lion Air…

I think both end up with blame on Boeing. If a discussion in world news isn't enough to prepare an experienced 737 pilot (ten years!) to counteract spurious MCAS, then nothing is, at least to the level of safety expected in airline travel. A plausible explanation for (1) that I've seen discussed is that, after disabling the auto trim, it may be impossible to manually re-trim while the yoke's pulled back, without firs…

[deleted]
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