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The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

theatlantic.com

111–120 of 247 posts

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#111
post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

So it would appear the Bryan Caplan thesis is consensus among the sample of HN readers that comment, and that honestly makes me pretty happy because I'm fairly sure it's correct. Still, it's always good to examine things from both sides:

A lot of what the 'costly signaling' genre of comments miss is that a costly signal is very valuable. In the old school system where literally anyone could act as legal representation, it can be difficult to figure out who's trustworthy council. The professionalization of legal representation took away the public's ability to practice law, but it also better enabled them to consistently get competent legal counsel. Is that tradeoff worth it? Plausible.

I feel like a lot of the rankling around licensing and professionalization is because the costs of it are rarely taken into account so we let the commons suffer. The truth is that you can only strictly license and professionalize so many occupations. In a society with limited growth and a need for everyone to be employed being sufficiently risk averse means that economic freedom is stunted. That more than anything else seems to be what people are feeling as they reel from massive college debts and 'hustlers mindset'. Licensing costs are probably nonlinear, your nth license restriction costs more than the last did.

To the extent that college is 'sink or swim' it probably has a conditioning effect. I absolutely hate myself for what I tolerated to get my degree, but I'd be lying if I said the spiritual damage doesn't translate into a burnout who knows how to kill themselves going at stuff they hate. That's a very positive effect from an employability standpoint. Multiple times what I thought would be my psychological breaking point just turned out to be another ratchet on the road to scholastic moksha. It's only when you've learned to hate yourself so thoroughly that you can tolerate anything, that you're ready to handle the level of difficulty and nihilism the modern workplace is likely to present you with. Of course that perspective is closer in spirit to Mussolini than Mill, so you can't exactly advertise it in your universities brochure.

It's very possible if we don't do that somehow, you just can't quite produce the sort of highly disciplined person you need to make society work.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#112
post #67
post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

So you would say your average 22 year old college grad has "an expansive view of human knowledge"? I realize this sounds like it should be a strawman, but it is not! That follows directly from your supposition that 'college is good because it provides an expansive view of human knowledge.' If this is at all true then your average grad should have something at least vaguely resembling an expansive view of human knowle…

I'm in complete agreeance with this. I notice a difference in behaviour of "working class" vs "white collar" cultures but this difference isn't due to university, it's due to different cultures as adults. In my 20's I'd rarely meet someone intellectual through my professional circles, everyone that age simply wanted to go do drugs at music festivals, talk about the boring reality TV, etc. I know/knew people in academia, however, and this was the one area of my life where people largely had intellectual interests.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#113
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand this - I didn't assume that the student would start at age zero. If we're going into vocational training in their teen years, they'll have to starting teaching the classics and philosophy to tweens.

Oh. I see what you mean, although I’m not convinced that 12-year-olds couldn’t handle these topics, at least at a slower pace.

Maybe, but if we can't have "Diary of Anne Frank" in class, I wonder how people would feel about the renaissance art viewings.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#115
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand this - I didn't assume that the student would start at age zero. If we're going into vocational training in their teen years, they'll have to starting teaching the classics and philosophy to tweens.

Oh. I see what you mean, although I’m not convinced that 12-year-olds couldn’t handle these topics, at least at a slower pace.

It can be useful to learn things early and able to revisit them later with a fuller understanding.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#116
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back then, most people finished school at grade 8. Those who went to High School were smart and motivated to further their education. So curricula could be correspondingly more challenging/faster-paced.

I'm 44yo now... my great grandmother was a school teacher starting in the 1930s, and her 5th grade books for English alone was far more difficult than anything I had through H.S.

What kind of book, grammar, literature? What made it so difficult?

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#117
post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

I agree about the expansive view of human knowledge. However there is more than one path to that knowledge...

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#118
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A large component of a university education is not so much what you learn at university, but the doors it can open for you later. In general (with some exceptions of course) it is unlikely you would be using very much of your university knowledge after a few years in your job in any case. You can have a very successful career without a college / university education, it is just easier to do the same with such an educ…

The "need that piece of paper" thing is sad but true. I do think it is changing, as I notice more and more IT job postings asking for X degree or equivalent experience nowadays.

Despite advice to the contrary the first step in the hiring funnel for coveted dev positions is to throw out applications w/o a four year degree. Ask me how I know. A bit different than IT, but related.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#119
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that's what high school should be. And let's face it, general studies courses that make up that "expansive view" of college really are repeats of high school with slightly more work, at least if you take honors classes in high school. And if that expansive knowledge is being surrounded by peers who are in pursuit of higher learning...that's not the typical college experience these days. High school is becoming…

I'd argue that expansive view should be coming way, way earlier than high school. How about before you beat the curiosity and sense of wonder out of 5-8 year olds with times tables, memorizing the dates presidents were born, and repeating the word "prepositional phrase" a thousand times - that would be a good time to start.

Public education is fundamentally broken in this regard (except for the times tables, IMO much more time should be spent on math in-school vs homework).

History in the elementary school level seems near useless, aside from building reading comprehension skills.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar situation and yes I have done that and far beyond. I even work in a field where it is just assumed I have a degree and people are always extremely shocked when I mention that I do not. I am under the impression it is not possible to CLEP computer science classes or in any way get recognition for this. Is that correct? Edit: specify CLEP for computer science

You can take the GRE for CS without being a student, as proof of your knowledge. I have heard of very rare cases where people have been admitted to a professional master's program (different from the regular master's program in that it's meant for working professionals) without having a degree.

The Computer Science GRE was discontinued a few years ago.
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