Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would argue that every user wants E2E, they just don't know (enough) about it. E2E should be the default.
It can’t be default because the protocol is degradable by design. I would agree that they could advocate a method to harmonize all COI-aware IMAP servers. But it’s hard to get E2E encryption in a heterogeneous, legacy environment.
COI – Chat Over IMAP
111–120 of 259 posts
Re: COI – Chat Over IMAP
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
i'd argue that the Matrix.org Foundation is just as 'recognized' as the XMPP Standards Foundation :) In terms of disingenuousness - i'd argue that the definition of disingenuous is accusing us of reinventing the wheel rather than acknowledging that Matrix is an entirely different type of technology to IRC or XMPP. It's more similar to NNTP or Git than either IRC or XMPP. For better or worse, trying to solve existing…
> i'd argue that the Matrix.org Foundation is just as 'recognized' as the XMPP Standards Foundation :) Recognized by whom? The XSF has standardized their core in IETF. Is there something similar for Matrix.org Foundation? > trying to solve existing problems using new approaches is how things evolve. What new approaches? You're just recreating federated IM network using different wire format. How on earth is it innova…
The foundations responsible for the protocols look to be pretty similar to me (both non-profit orgs), and would be equally recognized as such by the general public. Obviously XSF contributed XMPP to the IETF after 10 years or so, and perhaps we'll end up contributing Matrix to IETF or W3C or whoever too if they'll have it.
> How on earth is it innovative or new? > Since you invented nothing new, you evolve nothing.
sigh - I wonder if the XMPP community would spend less time constantly complaining about Matrix if they understood what it was :/
The innovative bit of Matrix is that it's a replicated database of objects (events), similar to Git, but designed for syncing conversation history around in realtime. The events for a given room get replicated over all the participating nodes. There is no central server responsible for coordinating the room; instead all the participating ones do so equally. It's impossible to communicate with someone on a different node without effectively giving them a lazy-loaded HA replica of the room. Architecturally this is about as opposite of MUC (or MIX or FMUC or DMUC or whatever) as I can think of.
It's NOTHING to do with HTTP+JSON versus TCP+XML - Matrix can use whatever transport and encoding floats your boat. For instance, at FOSDEM we showed Matrix running over CoAP+CBOR to try to spell this out: https://fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/matrix/.
Re: COI – Chat Over IMAP
#113Earlier quoted context omitted.
You can just search on the client after decrypting.
Oh, sure. Just download all of the messages. The problem with that is that you run into users like me, who have 25 years of archived email, a mobile phone, and who travel abroad.
Re: COI – Chat Over IMAP
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
The pivotal reason people use WhatsApp is because it can be used without paying (with money that is), and because up to 90% of people in any country use it¹. That's it. Facebook could remove E2E today, and lose only a fraction of its WhatsApp users. Of course many little annoyances might mean that a competitor may step up, but WhatsApp is incumbent, and this is no longer about features or technology. It's all about t…
It must vary a lot. I live in the United States and I've never encountered anyone who wanted to communicate over WhatsApp.
In Germany I'd say it's by far the most common chat client, even my parents use it.
Re: COI – Chat Over IMAP
#115Hopefully once COI has a client, I can try that one out as well; if its android client supports multiple email accounts per install (unlike Delta.chat at the moment), it will almost certainly make its way into normal app rotation and evangelizing BBM/WA/Messages users to a more private, secure instant message client.
Re: COI – Chat Over IMAP
#116Are Google, Apple, Microsoft, and other large email providers likely to implement a protocol like this into their own servers? It seems like a major conflict of interest, and without them it is a massive portion of the market that will never see this service work.
Re: COI – Chat Over IMAP
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
If I interpret the homepage correctly clients/servers without extra COI enhancements will just receive the messages as emails. Not ideal, but in any client with threading (gmail, apple), it would work decently i guess.
According to the spec ( https://confluence-public.open-xchange.com/display/CoiW/COI+... ) clients are expected to ask the IMAP server using a CAPABILITY command whether it supports COI extensions. Whether or not the server does support COI, messages are indeed standard mails with an extra Chat-Version: header and the requirement that Message-Ids start with "coi$". So an existing server need not do anything to support…
Re: COI – Chat Over IMAP
#118Re: COI – Chat Over IMAP
#119> With XMPP and Matrix.org -based services you would still need to convince everyone to join your new network. Easy in theory, very complex in practice! I think they missed the the bit where Matrix is called Matrix because it bridges (matrixes) the existing networks (Slack, IRC, Telegram, Discord, XMPP, etc) in, rather than needing to convince everyone to join. But no matter, we'll just provide a COI bridge if this t…
Well then matrix developers can develop a bridge for COI then :P
Re: COI – Chat Over IMAP
#120E-Mail got extended as much as it could and COI doesn't change anything about it. If you want something like COI you can use deltachat https://github.com/deltachat/deltachat-android I couldn't find any specification about anything (encryption, contacts, group-chats,...) and the worst part is that it doesn't even solve the arbitrary problems it poses itself. privacy? Fat chance when you use E-mail. "big bad providers"…