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Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

kirkcenter.org

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Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#111

Post by EdSharkey »

_bxg1 wrote: post #77
EdSharkey wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the following statements are rational or evidence-based, but I consider them to be true: * Life is not perfect as long as there's death. * Humans cannot live in perfect harmony with one another because of our pesky evil streak. * Man-made laws cannot eliminate human evil. When philosophising at such depths, it's instinctive to get religious. It's also a handy abstraction. Also, transcending reality through wo…

Despite some others' replies, I never meant to dismiss Christianity, much less religion in general. "It's a handy abstraction" is something I wholly agree with, which I think gets lost on a lot of self-identified "rationalists". I actually think there's a lot of value to be found in religion; the problem comes when it gets infused with a political or national identity and becomes a rallying call instead of a subject…

Yeah, it's super uncomfortable for me when I see religion mixed with/imposed on politics. I cringe when I hear someone quoting chapter and verse in a political context, having that be the whole basis of their opinion, because a lot of that knowledge they rely on is ancient/dead.

Your spoonful of sugar observation is just human nature; people love to spout memes like they're so clever. :)

Where we might disagree though is that I believe society, laws, and justice need to be predicated on moral codes. And so it follows that we all need to be able to speak the same moral language fluently.

We should be informed by relevant moral teachings in the bible, primarily, and then great philosophers and legal scholars secondarily. What's "relevant" needs to be hashed out through extended civil discourse; it can't be imposed and have any hope for acceptance.

I mentioned the bible specifically because it is a high quality doc and liberates the reader rather than shackles with its moral codes and message, which to me makes it unique and worthwhile.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#112

Post by anigbrowl »

stcredzero wrote: post #100
_bxg1 wrote: post #33

I don't strongly disagree on any particular point, per se, but the fact that the author's thoughts are rooted in a religious worldview felt like it was snuck in there at the end: "Moreover, this world is fallen, so it is by nature flawed...The utopian visions that animate real places...seek to remake humanity and society in someone’s image—and that is not the image of the Creator." For further context, the website it…

From the article: Two key identifying marks of dystopia are social regimentation and an inevitable totalitarianism. "Conform or be cast out." --Rush, Subdivisions, Signals, 1982 "Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences." From the article: Next, dystopia is marked by dehumanization How one tweet can ruin your life | Jon Ronson -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAIP6fI0NAI From the article: The abuse…

There's a story in the news today about a Coast Guard lieutenant with extreme political views who was planning to go on an Anders Breivik style murder spree. Your model doesn't seem to include people who have zero interest in dialogue or persuasion and are willing to simply eliminate people they find disagreeable. Regrettably, it's not hard to find people who subscribe to eliminationist ideologies, and having found them it is not difficult to figure out the content of such ideologies.

At what point do you consider the listening process sufficient for conclusions to be drawn, or any other action to be taken? If all you do is gather data and you never analyze or act upon it, what use is it?

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#113

Post by anigbrowl »

coldtea wrote: post #68
kerbalspacepro wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>this world is fallen Makes the entire article essentially meaningless. How can I trust somebody with such a bizarre and unconnected worldview?

Not really bizarre or really unconnected. In fact, for most of history, and with very great many minds throughout history agreeing to that, it would be your objection that would be considered bizarre. You don't have to believe in a specific creator or any specific religious mythology to agree with such a statement as "this world is fallen". Even as atheist like e.g. Emil Cioran could agree with such a statement. But…

Arguably it is itself a dystopian worldview, based on the loss of some historic or imagined utopia.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#115

Post by stcredzero »

anigbrowl wrote: post #112
stcredzero wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: Two key identifying marks of dystopia are social regimentation and an inevitable totalitarianism. "Conform or be cast out." --Rush, Subdivisions, Signals, 1982 "Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences." From the article: Next, dystopia is marked by dehumanization How one tweet can ruin your life | Jon Ronson -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAIP6fI0NAI From the article: The abuse…

There's a story in the news today about a Coast Guard lieutenant with extreme political views who was planning to go on an Anders Breivik style murder spree. Your model doesn't seem to include people who have zero interest in dialogue or persuasion and are willing to simply eliminate people they find disagreeable. Regrettably, it's not hard to find people who subscribe to eliminationist ideologies, and having found t…

Your model doesn't seem to include people who have zero interest in dialogue or persuasion and are willing to simply eliminate people they find disagreeable.

I see this time and time again: Instead of engaging with dissenters, forums, groups of all kinds just evict people who are perfectly willing to talk. In principle, that's also acting to "simply eliminate people they find disagreeable." Often, it turns out that saying, "freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences," turns out to be a way to "find people who subscribe to eliminationist ideologies." They are not as bad, by any means. Instead of using bullets, they might use accusations and namecalling instead. In the past few years, people claiming to be on the Left have even used clubs, vandalism, and assault.

At what point do you consider the listening process sufficient for conclusions to be drawn, or any other action to be taken?

Certainly someone who reaches the level of Anders Breivik's extremism is beyond talking to. However, it's the height of arrogance and immorality to treat people who are perfectly willing to talk as if they are him. What I see so much of is the treatment of sincere questions as if they are such extremism.

If all you do is gather data and you never analyze or act upon it, what use is it?

What I see most of, is people not gathering data, not communicating, and eliminating first, asking questions never. "You are either with us, or against us." It stunk to high heaven when George W. Bush said it. It's just as coercive and authoritarian when such tactics are used by others today. (Worse, when it's used by people who are supposed to be against such things!)

If you would fear the unreasonable who are beyond talking to, it behooves you to reach out to those perfectly willing to talk. In fact, I can confidently say that you can find plenty of common ground, if you look hard enough. In 2019, in the current climate, the easy, facile thing to do is to give into the outrage mongering, your personal information bubble, and the groupthink and othering of the other side.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#116

Post by cc439 »

petermcneeley wrote: post #6

An article brought to you by an institute that believes in: "There are certain permanent things in society: the health of the family, inherited political institutions that insure a measure of order and justice and freedom, a life of diversity and independence, a life marked by widespread possession of private property. These permanent things guarantee against arbitrary interference by the state. These are all aspects…

What's wrong with any of that?

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#117

Post by winchling »

Retra wrote: post #102
winchling wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Utopias and Dystopias are only interesting as thought experiments to imagine what Humans could be possible about They both have the property that progress has ended; that we have ceased learning about reality. An undesirable state to be in! Yet ideas of utopias and dystopias have been used to advance the careers/interests/ambitions of the power-hungry, e.g. when they reluctantly accept power. they don't want power (…

I don't think there's anything inherent to a utopia that means you stop learning about reality. If anything, you should expect anything you learn about reality to have maximally broad impact according to its relevance to people's lives. There's nothing about a perfect organization of society that implies a steady, non-adaptive state.

How can anything have an impact if there are no problems? How can there be problems if the arrangements are perfect? How can anything which is perfect be improved? etc.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#118

Post by philwelch »

ijpoijpoihpiuoh wrote: post #61
philwelch wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nordic social democracy isn’t a utopian idea, though. It’s a progressive idea and an ambitious idea but it only really peeks out slightly from the normal range of market economies with welfare states, especially within Europe. Feudalism and slavery were awful, but don’t come close to the concentrated human misery inflicted by the utopian projects of the 20th century.

> Feudalism and slavery were awful, but don’t come close to the concentrated human misery inflicted by the utopian projects of the 20th century. By that I assume you're largely referring to the Soviet Union and China during the cultural revolution? Yeah sure, those were bad, but it's hard for me to say whether they were particularly better or worse than slavery (at least from the perspective of a slave). Moreover, I…

It took centuries for the slave trade to approximate the death toll of communist regimes. Fascism and national socialism were also utopian projects. Under all of these projects, millions of people were enslaved, imprisoned, persecuted, and murdered in vast numbers. I’m not saying the aggregate amount of human misery is the same, but the amount of misery inflicted in a given year was dramatically higher.

“Utopian” is used in this context to refer to efforts to rebuild society from the ground up on logical principles chosen in isolation.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#119

Post by philwelch »

blotter_paper wrote: post #94
ijpoijpoihpiuoh wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Feudalism and slavery were awful, but don’t come close to the concentrated human misery inflicted by the utopian projects of the 20th century. By that I assume you're largely referring to the Soviet Union and China during the cultural revolution? Yeah sure, those were bad, but it's hard for me to say whether they were particularly better or worse than slavery (at least from the perspective of a slave). Moreover, I…

I think you could argue that the horrors of this last century have been crueler than all the others simply because there were so many more humans to thrust them upon. I'm not convinced that it had a higher horror per capita, though.

Per unit time, certainly. Though this may also be because slavery persisted for centuries and the e.g. Khmer Rouge would have never been capable of that.

Re: Dystopia Is What Results from the Attempt to Create Utopia

#120

Post by freshhawk »

stcredzero wrote: post #100
_bxg1 wrote: post #33

I don't strongly disagree on any particular point, per se, but the fact that the author's thoughts are rooted in a religious worldview felt like it was snuck in there at the end: "Moreover, this world is fallen, so it is by nature flawed...The utopian visions that animate real places...seek to remake humanity and society in someone’s image—and that is not the image of the Creator." For further context, the website it…

From the article: Two key identifying marks of dystopia are social regimentation and an inevitable totalitarianism. "Conform or be cast out." --Rush, Subdivisions, Signals, 1982 "Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences." From the article: Next, dystopia is marked by dehumanization How one tweet can ruin your life | Jon Ronson -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAIP6fI0NAI From the article: The abuse…

You are describing the concept of "social norms" and "taboos" and "shunning" in a particularly convoluted and confused way.

You are talking about people being shunned and gossiped about like it is on par with being kidnapped by armed government agents and confined in a cell. Like going to jail or being killed and getting cancelled on twitter are close enough to the same thing that the same philosophical framework applies.

I'd suggest you back up and re-evaluate how you got here.

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