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Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

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Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#111

Post by makomk »

Mirioron wrote: post #105
beefield wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wondering, what exactly makes you think the laws shoved to your throat by Sweden would on average be any less idiotic? And why would just Sweden be the right size of entity that optimizes the idiocy of the laws, why independent Skåne would not be shoving less idiotic laws to your throat?

Because when Swedish politicians push for stupid laws they can be revoked while campaigning for it. The politicians will care, because the politicians are the ones who risk not getting elected if they ignore the issue. If the EU decides on a directive that people don't like, then the only way to get it revoked would be for Swedish people to start campaigning foreign politicians, who they cannot vote for.

It's even worse than that, because laws like this are created and pushed for by the European Commission which isn't elected and doesn't really represent the countries or the people of the EU.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#112

Post by Pharmakon »

makomk wrote: post #111
Mirioron wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because when Swedish politicians push for stupid laws they can be revoked while campaigning for it. The politicians will care, because the politicians are the ones who risk not getting elected if they ignore the issue. If the EU decides on a directive that people don't like, then the only way to get it revoked would be for Swedish people to start campaigning foreign politicians, who they cannot vote for.

It's even worse than that, because laws like this are created and pushed for by the European Commission which isn't elected and doesn't really represent the countries or the people of the EU.

How do members of the EC come into power?

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#113

Post by makomk »

Pharmakon wrote: post #112
makomk wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's even worse than that, because laws like this are created and pushed for by the European Commission which isn't elected and doesn't really represent the countries or the people of the EU.

How do members of the EC come into power?

The actual mechanics are complicated, a mess, and (in the case of the current President of the European Commission) made up out of whole cloth with no legal basis and used exactly once so far, but a rough summary is: through shady backroom deals we have no visibility into.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#114

Post by DelightOne »

vanderZwan wrote: post #104
DelightOne wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you accidentally break a law because some countries did more than the directive?

IIRC you may make higher demands on your own country, but cannot restrict goods from foreign markets that meet the EU criteria (that's the entire point after all). It can get a bit weird. For example, IIRC Dutch laws regarding for cheese production safety are more strict than what EU laws require, with mandatory weekly testing for bacterial growth. However, any cheese meeting EU laws is allowed to be sold on the mark…

If Google News meets EU criteria, then why did they leave Spain after Spain introduced ancillary copyright? So goods and services are not handled the same? Or is the idea wrong?

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#115

Post by Pharmakon »

makomk wrote: post #113
Pharmakon wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do members of the EC come into power?

The actual mechanics are complicated, a mess, and (in the case of the current President of the European Commission) made up out of whole cloth with no legal basis and used exactly once so far, but a rough summary is: through shady backroom deals we have no visibility into.

I assume these deals are ultimately made by elected heads of state though? Not that it makes this a good system of course, it’s clearly a mixed bag at best, but if the EC is ultimately appointed by individual elected governments rather than by EU fiat then the problem is thornier than just unelected representatives. Then again it’s understandable that voters probably don’t place EC appointments as a major factor in their domestic elections.

It sounds like a system ripe for cronyism and abuse, opacity, and in need of reform.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#116

Post by porpoisely »

carom wrote: post #29
DubiousPusher wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pedestal contemporary people put national identity on is just that, contemporary. National identities didn't arise naturally. Many of them were very thoughtfully and intentionally invented. For most of human history, the idea that people over a geography the size of Engalnd would see themselves as one people would've been ridiculous. It's really only in the last 200-400 years that people have accepted the nation…

Comments like this remind me how much I like California. It's nice to be in a place that doesn't conflate regional identity with race or religion. It was a surprise to me when living on the east coast how often people asked about my heritage. My people are whoever comes down to Old Muscle Beach to work out, whoever is at the skate park. I'm super happy that those crowds are varied.

Are you talking about the California of the LA Riots? The california of constant race riots in high schools? A california with the largest white supremacist population, the largest ethnic mexican gangs, largest asian-ethnic gangs, largest black ethnic gangs, etc? A california of ethnic neighborhoods and segregation?

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-rothstein-segreg...

Not that we are any better on the east coast, but you must be living a very sheltered life if you think california is some racial paradise.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#117

Post by int_19h »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #89
Sammi wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the parent comment is trying to make the point that nation state identity is equally as arbitrary and artificial as a continent identity. People like identifying with a group. It seems like an innate craving of humanity. I think we should learn to be careful not to be exploited for this craving. Whether it is a nation, the EU, a religion or a soccer team, one should be very very careful.

"nation state identity is equally as arbitrary and artificial as a continent identity." I would disagree. Nation states are formalizations of ethnic groups and they did arise naturally. They are not arbitrary. 'Sweden' is where the 'Swedes' live, essentially. And they have for a very long time. There is not much arbitrary about the nation states of Europe, they mostly have clear historical orientation. The Habsbourg…

You're assuming that ethnic nation-states were the norm in human history. They were not - most states originate from rulers that unified them, and their original citizenship was basically people who swore fealty to that ruler and not the other. Most modern nations didn't exist then, either, except as numerous separate tribes that had to be forcibly unified, and their distinct identities erased, to make them into those nations. We see the legacy of this process even today, e.g. in how many European countries treat their various regional languages and dialects.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#118

Post by int_19h »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #98
DubiousPusher wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You almost couldn't have picked two worse examples. Italy, for most of its history was divided into regions or even into smaller city states depending on the era. Even during the Roman hedgemony the peninusala did not act as a single political entity. There was significant disagreement about who outside of Roman was "Roman". This came to a head when Rome fought a war against it's neighboring cities and villages over…

Actually he picked good examples. "Greek nationalism developed around the same time." This not true. While the 'nation state' as a legal formalism didn't arrive until recently - the 'Greek identity' existed in antiquity. Not only that - Greek identity was maintained throughout 2000 years of occupation ! That's how strong and 'not arbitrary' their cultural foundation is. If smaller Greek states were 'arbitrary' - they…

> When the Persians invaded 'Greece' - the infighting Greek states bound together and acted more or less as an entity to push out the invaders. Point being: 'Invading Persians' was not the same thing as 'Spartans invading Athens'.

You're reading an awful lot into a single anecdote. There were other occasions where some Greek polities allied with Persians against others.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#119

Post by anoncake »

isostatic wrote: post #97
kosievdmerwe wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a guess, the MEPs are divided proportionally to parties based on the vote total of the entire country. Rather than say, splitting the country up into chunks and having each chunk selecting an MEP.

Large countries are split into chunks - the UK comprises about 9 constituencies IIRC.

It's up to each country.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#120

Post by adrianN »

aikah wrote: post #52
DubiousPusher wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pedestal contemporary people put national identity on is just that, contemporary. National identities didn't arise naturally. Many of them were very thoughtfully and intentionally invented. For most of human history, the idea that people over a geography the size of Engalnd would see themselves as one people would've been ridiculous. It's really only in the last 200-400 years that people have accepted the nation…

> The pedestal contemporary people put national identity on is just that, contemporary. As opposed to the pedestal people put supra national institutions such as the EU? Rome? Napoleon's Empire? all failed eventually. > National identities didn't arise naturally. Neither did the European Union. All societies are man made constructs, what your point? > It's only our contemporary bias that tells us that the subordinati…

Germany can be seen as a supranational entity. Until quite recently Germany was a bunch of almost independent states, reasonably similar to what the EU is now. So far increased integration seems to have worked out for Germany.
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