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Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

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Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#111

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

PaulHoule wrote: post #2

A Cadillac is not just an expensive car, it is an expensive car to own. (Gas, repair bills, etc.) If you are a W-2 worker you have to be at work at a certain time and you need a car that can start every morning so you can get to work on time. Higher class people can afford multiple cars, take time off from work, take a cab, etc. The Cadillac brand is appealing to many lower class Americans so you often see them in "b…

> If you are a W-2 worker you have to be at work at a certain time and you need a car that can start every morning so you can get to work on time.

That has nothing to do with being a "W-2 worker". Being a W-2 just means you're not an independent contractor. I'm a W-2 worker, and if my car breaks down, I can just send an e-mail to my team and tell them I'll be working from home.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#112

Post by CommieBobDole »

hangonhn wrote: post #22
SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #9

Automotive EE here. In the last 5-8 years there has been a DRAMATIC change in the way vehicles are tested and released. Everyone has become much more focused on electronic features - while at the same time almost everyone is completely outsourcing electronics design and firmware. Cars hit the lots with 10 new flashes waiting. When I started, it was a BIG DEAL if you had a lot held up somewhere in Detroit because of a…

But that's been that way for some time now. My 2002 (E46) BMW 3-series has mostly Bosch parts inside. The transmission is made by... GM. The only thing that's BMW is the engine and the body. All the sensors on the engine are Bosch. It's a fairly smart way of developing a car in my opinion: concentrate on what you're good at. But to add to your point: you can also tell from the problems what BMW had outsourced -- it's…

That's been the case for a very long time. I have a 1980 BMW 528i, and it's the same. BMW motor, but everything electric is Bosch, including the L-Jetronic fuel injection. Transmission is ZF as well.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#113

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #9

Automotive EE here. In the last 5-8 years there has been a DRAMATIC change in the way vehicles are tested and released. Everyone has become much more focused on electronic features - while at the same time almost everyone is completely outsourcing electronics design and firmware. Cars hit the lots with 10 new flashes waiting. When I started, it was a BIG DEAL if you had a lot held up somewhere in Detroit because of a…

You almost touched on something car manufacturers aren't doing, and that's providing software updates.

My Subaru's infotainment system has strange intermittent bugs with the Bluetooth system. I get annoyed that even if the developer fixes it, I'll never see an update without buying a new car.

It's one of the reasons I'm such a Tesla fanboy. They do software updates. What's really great too is that they're done over the air. You don't need to bring it to a dealer and pay a ridiculous fee for it.

It'd be really nice if the other manufacturers could get on that.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#114

Post by dragonwriter »

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #50
coupdejarnac wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has there been a trend to bring controls back in house? I used to work in another mature industry, HVAC. It also went through a period of outsourcing all electronics/software, and then they realized that all the IP/secret sauce going forward will be in the controls and related software. My former employer had plenty of unpleasant experiences outsourcing firmware, which contributed to bringing it all back in house.

>Has there been a trend to bring controls back in house? Best I can tell it's still going out, not pendulum back in. Part of the issue, and the thing almost no one realizes about Carpocolypse 2008 is that all these suppliers are 100% dependant on supplying to 5 vendors and that if one stops buying X module for 6 months, they fold. Blame in on JIT strategy, or regulation, or whatever, but Johnson Controls would have f…

> Part of the issue, and the thing almost no one realizes about Carpocolypse 2008 is that all these suppliers are 100% dependant on supplying to 5 vendors and that if one stops buying X module for 6 months, they fold.

This was widely pointed out at the time, including, IIRC, by the CEO of Ford, who used it in pointing out why the bailouts, which Ford did not directly receive, were essential for Ford.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#115

Post by kenhwang »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #113
SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #9

Automotive EE here. In the last 5-8 years there has been a DRAMATIC change in the way vehicles are tested and released. Everyone has become much more focused on electronic features - while at the same time almost everyone is completely outsourcing electronics design and firmware. Cars hit the lots with 10 new flashes waiting. When I started, it was a BIG DEAL if you had a lot held up somewhere in Detroit because of a…

You almost touched on something car manufacturers aren't doing, and that's providing software updates. My Subaru's infotainment system has strange intermittent bugs with the Bluetooth system. I get annoyed that even if the developer fixes it, I'll never see an update without buying a new car. It's one of the reasons I'm such a Tesla fanboy. They do software updates. What's really great too is that they're done over t…

My Porsche and my mom's Acura can both do OTA updates, though they both require user acknowledgement to install. Honestly, nothing coming OTA should be urgent enough that it can't wait until the yearly service.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#116

Post by danans »

clouddrover wrote: post #75
danans wrote: post #38

As electric vehicles mature and increase their share of the consumer market, it will be interesting to see how these sorts of reliability measurements change to maintain relevance. Already today, a luxury EV is probably more mechanically reliable than a mass market ICE car. Electric batteries and drivetrains have their differences in reliability for sure (IIUC, the 1st generation Nissan Leaf lacked a battery temp man…

> Already today, a luxury EV is probably more mechanically reliable than a mass market ICE car. Tesla is among the least reliable car brands at the moment: https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20... But I think that says more about the relative immaturity of Tesla's manufacturing than it does about EVs generally. It will be interesting to see how Volkswagen's modular MEB electric car platform goe…

From that CR article:

> Tesla fell six spots from last year and now ranks third-worst (27 out of 29). The Model S dropped to “Below Average” this year, and its Overall Score is no longer high enough to be “Recommended” by CR. Owners reported suspension problems and other issues that included the extending door handle. (Please see chart below.) The Model X SUV remained “Much-Worse-Than-Average” for reliability, with ongoing problems including the falcon-wing doors and center display screen. On the flip side, the Model 3 sedan has “Average” predicted reliability based on owner feedback

Note that none of those issues appear to be related to the electric battery and drivetrain. They are design and manufacturing issues with systems that are present on ICE cars also. It's a demonstration that the goalposts of "reliability" are themselves shifting away from focus on the propulsion system.

Admittedly, ICEs have become incredibly reliable themselves over the last few decades. But there is an order of magnitude more complexity required to achieve that reliability in an ICE vs an EV.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#117

Post by theluketaylor »

kenhwang wrote: post #91
diddid wrote: post #79

I think one thing to remember that people who buy a Toyota drive it like it's... a Toyota. Cars that are driven hard will break down faster than cars that aren't, and I'm guessing the average BMW is pushed harder than the average Toyota. My wife can put a hole in a pair of nice running shoes faster than I can even wear tread off of a junky pair. Use matters, not all miles are equal.

Doesn't explain the Porsche tie with Toyota unless you're suggesting Porsche drivers are more like Toyota drivers than BMW.

porsche builds their cars for track work, so even hard driving around town is light load for them (maybe not the macan).

Hard launches are among the toughest thing you can do to an ICE car. Most cars with launch control can do a few launches and then something overheats and the car refuses to do any more for a while. A car journalist tried to launch a PDK 911 until it failed. He got bored after 50 straight launches and stopped.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#118

Post by theluketaylor »

CommieBobDole wrote: post #112
hangonhn wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's been that way for some time now. My 2002 (E46) BMW 3-series has mostly Bosch parts inside. The transmission is made by... GM. The only thing that's BMW is the engine and the body. All the sensors on the engine are Bosch. It's a fairly smart way of developing a car in my opinion: concentrate on what you're good at. But to add to your point: you can also tell from the problems what BMW had outsourced -- it's…

That's been the case for a very long time. I have a 1980 BMW 528i, and it's the same. BMW motor, but everything electric is Bosch, including the L-Jetronic fuel injection. Transmission is ZF as well.

Even my 1975 bmw 2002 has a getrag 4 speed manual. The m10 engine I have was still being made in the late 80s for the 318i (with electronic ignition and fuel injection), but still mated to a 5 speed getrag.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#119

Post by loeg »

potta_coffee wrote: post #80
headmelted wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that a Lexus is a fancy Toyota, this doesn't surprise. I had it explained to me once by a MOT tester (a safety and emissions test in the UK that cars more than four years old must undergo annually) while my old Corolla was on the ramp that Toyota's process basically involves hardening parts from the last model for the most popular defects, with as little re-design work of the internal components between generat…

I have a Subaru beater with ~250k on it, it's going strong. Have had Toyotas with almost 300k miles on them before selling the car for ~1k bucks. I love Japanese cars. I have a Dodge Caravan, at 140k miles the thing is about ready for the junk pile.

My Subaru died at 20 years old and 200k miles, but that's still pretty good longevity for a car that isn't a Toyota.

Re: Toyotas and Chevys Are Holding Up Better Than Most Luxury Brands

#120

Post by clouddrover »

danans wrote: post #116
clouddrover wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Already today, a luxury EV is probably more mechanically reliable than a mass market ICE car. Tesla is among the least reliable car brands at the moment: https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20... But I think that says more about the relative immaturity of Tesla's manufacturing than it does about EVs generally. It will be interesting to see how Volkswagen's modular MEB electric car platform goe…

From that CR article: > Tesla fell six spots from last year and now ranks third-worst (27 out of 29). The Model S dropped to “Below Average” this year, and its Overall Score is no longer high enough to be “Recommended” by CR. Owners reported suspension problems and other issues that included the extending door handle. (Please see chart below.) The Model X SUV remained “Much-Worse-Than-Average” for reliability, with o…

> Note that none of those issues appear to be related to the electric battery and drivetrain.

I don't think it makes much difference what the failure is if the end result is that you can't sensibly drive the car.

If the display fails in a Tesla Model 3, for example, then that's a critical failure because you lose all dashboard information. In contrast, if the display failed in my car then I'd lose access to some features (like sat nav and the reversing camera) but I can otherwise safely drive the car.

If you can't drive the car safely then it doesn't matter how good the drivetrain is. You still need to fix the problem to make the car drivable.

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