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Russia considers 'unplugging' from internet

bbc.com

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Re: Russia considers 'unplugging' from internet

#111

Post by freeflight »

cptaj wrote: post #7

This has nothing to do with cyber warfare. Its just pushing the envelope towards full censorship of the internet. They get the systems in place, they run drills to get the population used to the idea, then they close specific sectors, then they close everything and have special "open sectors" and then you're fucked. Don't fall for it.

This has everything to do with keeping Russian digital sovereignty intact in case "digital blockades" will become an actual thing.

Like it or not, but Facebook and Google sitting in the US, collecting massive amounts of private data from people all over the world, while the NSA just taps straight into exchanges, like the DE-CIX, means that the Internet is an inherently very hostile place to any non-Five eyes [0] actors.

It's also for those above reasons that Russia and China have massive local social media alternatives, they don't want their citizen's data to end up on US servers.

For countries like Russia and China, it's actually important to make sure their digital infrastructure doesn't fall apart the moment a US company, or those aligned with Five-Eye interests, decide to shut them out.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes

Re: Russia considers 'unplugging' from internet

#112

Post by freeflight »

rohan1024 wrote: post #51
tivert wrote: post #5

> The test is also expected to involve ISPs demonstrating that they can direct data to government-controlled routing points. These will filter traffic so that data sent between Russians reaches its destination, but any destined for foreign computers is discarded. > Eventually the Russian government wants all domestic traffic to pass through these routing points. This is believed to be part of an effort to set up a ma…

Until we have skynet online. edit: I was talking about starlink. Assumed that Elon Musk named it skynet

Skynet has actually been online, and killing people, for quite a while already [0].

[0] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/02/the-n...

Re: Russia considers 'unplugging' from internet

#113

Post by freeflight »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #17
JackPoach wrote: post #2

It's a smart thing to do (to have such a plan) even if no cyberwar ever takes place. There are so many possible scenarios of what could go wrong and having autonomous but functioning internet is absolutely necessary.

What's the value in protecting the domestic internet from a cyber attack? Critical national information services absolutely, but if Reddit goes down, it's not a matter of national emergency. The conceit COULD be for disseminating information, but a text message system would make more sense in that regards, plus good old fashioned TV and Radio.

The "domestic internet" is part of a collection of infrastructure systems that need to properly work to keep order in place.

For a more blatant example take a look at the dependency of US emergency services on private communication companies like Calif. wildfire fighters having their communications disrupted because Verizon throttled their bandwidth.

At first sight a mildly interesting anecdote, but in reality, it's a massive flaw in the US's approach to infrastructure. If anybody really wanted to "cyber" the US they would only need to attack the private communication providers, like Verizon, and will not only take down the public spread of information/communication, but also completely disrupt the civilian emergency response forces attempting to react to whatever else the adversary might be attacking with, for an attacker it's a win-win.

Sure, the US military has its own hardened communication, but all the rest of the US American society? They will be left out in complete information and communication blackout.

[0] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/08/verizon-throttle...

Re: Russia considers 'unplugging' from internet

#114

Post by freeflight »

1024core wrote: post #48

Why wouldn't they? They've shown that it can be weaponized, and now are afraid of being on the receiving end.

They've been on the "receiving end" of it for years already, contrary to popular perceptions the Russians didn't really invent any of this [0].

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-op...

Re: Russia considers 'unplugging' from internet

#115

Post by ernst_klim »

JackPoach wrote: post #94
cptaj wrote: post #7

This has nothing to do with cyber warfare. Its just pushing the envelope towards full censorship of the internet. They get the systems in place, they run drills to get the population used to the idea, then they close specific sectors, then they close everything and have special "open sectors" and then you're fucked. Don't fall for it.

First, you overestimate western media influence on Russian population, which is essentially so minor you can completely disregard it. Even domestically fewer and fewer Americans(Brits) take American or British media seriously. Second, many governments (not just Russian one) have been very effective at censorship without disconnecting from the Internet. China is the only county that does both censorship and 'the Great…

>you overestimate western media influence on Russian population

They don't want to turn off western media, they want to turn off people like Navalny and thousands of government critics who use facebook, telegram and youtube, plus Russian anti-gove media located abroad for the safety reasons, like Meduza.

They've already tried to block telegram and failed, now they are going a more radical way.

Re: Russia considers 'unplugging' from internet

#116

Post by mschuster91 »

isostatic wrote: post #105
yardstick wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a local instance of it in Russia? What happens when that server can’t reach any upstreams?

Yes there is, but if there wasn't it's easy enough for a government controlled provider to advertise it (and 1.1.1.1 etc). China (and others) can also simply intercept all udp traffic to port 53.

> China (and others) can also simply intercept all udp traffic to port 53.

Which is why DNSSEC (to prevent MITM tampering) and DNS encryption technologies such as DNScrypt or DNS-over-TLS/HTTPS become ever more important to be widely deployed.

Re: Russia considers 'unplugging' from internet

#117

Post by simula67 »

imrelaxed wrote: post #82
staplers wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.. I'm starting to see a lot of outrageous opinions like this on 'normal' forums like Reddit and HN with people defending this type of authoritarianism. I see the internet trending so extreme to the point it's useless for me. Not sure if others feel the same. Makes me sad to remember the hope I used to feel about its possibilities.

The above opinion get’s circulated quite a bit through Russian media. I speak Russian and check in on what’s going over there from time to time and let me tell you since 2014 shit has really hit the proverbial fan over there, television sensorship is utter and complete, preposterous lies are aired by the hour every hour, news segments are either heavily spun or straight up manufactured with actors and props, tv shows…

Things have gotten a lot worse between Russia and West. West has backed out of INF, introduced sanctions, announced plans to militarized space etc

Re: Russia considers 'unplugging' from internet

#118

Post by isostatic »

mschuster91 wrote: post #116
isostatic wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes there is, but if there wasn't it's easy enough for a government controlled provider to advertise it (and 1.1.1.1 etc). China (and others) can also simply intercept all udp traffic to port 53.

> China (and others) can also simply intercept all udp traffic to port 53. Which is why DNSSEC (to prevent MITM tampering) and DNS encryption technologies such as DNScrypt or DNS-over-TLS/HTTPS become ever more important to be widely deployed.

Doesn't really help though - even when you bypass China's DNS hijacking you still can't connect to the target IP.

Re: Russia considers 'unplugging' from internet

#119

Post by yardstick »

floatboth wrote: post #104
yardstick wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a local instance of it in Russia? What happens when that server can’t reach any upstreams?

There is. Only Google can answer the second question with certainty, but I'm 99% sure its upstreams are http://root-servers.org

So wouldn’t it be reasonable to test what happens when it can’t reach its upstream servers? I assume Russia will need to provide some way of DNS record changes still working. It could be they intercept/replace 8.8.8.8, or they intercept the upstreams, but whatever it is I can see why they would want to test it first.

Not that I agree with the ultimate reasons for doing this exercise — mass filtering and surveillance — just speaking to the technical merits of why a test would be done.

Re: Russia considers 'unplugging' from internet

#120

Post by agent008t »

Upvoter33 wrote: post #67
biesnecker wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I believed this as strongly as you do. The Chinese internet is isolated in a lot of very meaningful ways and the Chinese economy is not going backwards. There's probably a drag but it's not significant enough to stall progress. You can unfortunately retain a lot of the utility of the internet while simultaneously sucking out the ability for it to be effectively used for political activity if you're willing to…

"There's probably a drag but it's not significant enough to stall progress." I think it's rather the opposite. Why do you think tencent, alibaba, etc., exist in China, instead of the US alternatives? It's simply because there was a wall in place. Honestly, I'm not sure why more large countries aren't doing this - it's an easy way to build your own digital industry up.

I would argue it might have happened anyway. It would not have been profitable for US companies to export their services to China due to low (at the time) USD purchasing power of Chinese consumers.
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