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U.S. Now Says All Online Gambling Illegal, Not Just Sports Bets

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Re: U.S. Now Says All Online Gambling Illegal, Not Just Sports Bets

#111

Post by leetcrew »

EpicEng wrote: post #103
leetcrew wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> surely society benefits if we prevent a large number of our members from falling prey to addiction. how does society benefit from prohibiting people from doing things that only hurt themselves?

It doesn't only hurt themselves. They are tax paying citizens and the government has an interest in their welfare. They may have dependents. Now Timmy can't go to college because Dad blew their savings. They get a divorce, now mom and dad are depressed and Timmy enters a life of crime (or, less hyperbolic; doesn't make as much taxable revenue as he could have otherwise.) There are all sorts of laws which protect peop…

> There are all sorts of laws which protect people from themselves, this is nothing new. See; seatbelt laws for an obvious and simple example.

and they are all a grotesque overextension of state power. although seatbelt laws are actually not a good example; they protect people outside your vehicle as well.

I guess we just have different values. I don't want to be a revenue center for the state to optimize.

Re: U.S. Now Says All Online Gambling Illegal, Not Just Sports Bets

#112

Post by delecti »

dajohnson89 wrote: post #106
coralreef wrote: post #7

In contrast: "The Supreme Court cleared the way on Monday for states to legalize sports betting, striking down a 1992 federal law that had prohibited most states from authorizing sports betting." https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/14/politics/sports-betting-ncaa-...

so which one is in effect?

Why not both? You can do sports betting, just not online.

Note IANAL, but there doesn't seem to be a necessary conflict.

Re: U.S. Now Says All Online Gambling Illegal, Not Just Sports Bets

#113

Post by jstarfish »

paulcole wrote: post #100
Ajedi32 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insurance is the precise opposite of gambling; instead of concentrating reward, it distributes risk. When you buy insurance you're not betting that something bad will happen to you, you're hedging your otherwise implicit bet that something bad _won't_ happen to you.

You're just rephrasing it. How about: I'm betting State Farm $12 a month my apartment will burn down before I die or move out.

At the individual level, it seems a lot like gambling but insurance is not about individuals, it's about the pool.

You and a million other people give State Farm $12 so that in the event of fire or flood affecting a subset of the pool, there's enough money collected to pay out to make claimants whole.

There are no "winners" in the insurance game, only losses. If they have to pay you, you've already lost both the premiums you've already paid as well as what people or property were damaged (gambler's fallacy at work-- your entire neighborhood is smoldering and your family is dying painfully in the burn ward, but here's your insurance check, you winner!).

In your case, even if your apartment does burn down, it's not like you walk away with a windfall (unlike gambling). The adjuster is going to see to it you end up no better off than almost-exactly how you were before the fire. You don't "win" anything, and the meager payout you get can't always replace who or what you lost in the process.

Everybody involved also loses if more peoples' apartments go up in flames than there is money in reserve-- unlike with lotteries, where the payout is distributed equally amongst the claimants.

Re: U.S. Now Says All Online Gambling Illegal, Not Just Sports Bets

#114

Post by pnw_hazor »

cphoover wrote: post #43

Sheldon Adelson = Big GOP money. "Adelson's newspaper, the Las Vegas Review-Journal, was the only major newspaper nationwide to endorse Trump.[42][43] Adelson was also the largest donor to Trump's inaugural celebrations, with a $5 million donation to the celebrations.[44]" -- Wikipedia

Well it has been a felony for years in Washington state. Not really a Trump stronghold.

"For Washington State residents, all gambling on the Internet is illegal, including all types of sports betting. "

https://www.wsgc.wa.gov/about-us/frequently-asked-questions/...

edit: quote+link

Re: U.S. Now Says All Online Gambling Illegal, Not Just Sports Bets

#115

Post by the_watcher »

Congress could moot all of this by simply passing (or repealing existing law) a law that leaves the issues to the states in question. While online gambling poses issues when not all states adopt the same rules, just treat it like sales tax and require the vendor (and gambler) to obey the laws of the state of the gambler. Sure, there would be vendors and gamblers who don't obey this, but there are already gambling providers (bookies) and gamblers who aren't following state or federal law.

Re: U.S. Now Says All Online Gambling Illegal, Not Just Sports Bets

#116

Post by Ajedi32 »

paulcole wrote: post #109
Ajedi32 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think of it this way: if your apartment burns down and you don't have insurance, you lose your apartment and everything in it. If your apartment burns down and you do have insurance, you still lose your apartment, but that loss is completely (at least in an ideal world) offset by money provided by the insurance company. Which scenario is the bigger gamble?

If I don't bet on the Patriots when I'm a Chiefs fan and the Patriots win my heart is broken. If the Patriots win and I bet on them, then my heart is still broken but that loss is offset by money provided by my bookie. I remain unconvinced that insurance is anything but a legal gamble.

If everyone treated sports bets that way, maybe it wouldn't be considered gambling. Though I kinda doubt a subscription service offering payouts whenever your favorite sports team loses would be a very successful business, as you'd have to be a pretty hardcore fan for emotional damage due to a loss to be something so significant that you can't take the hit without monetary compensation to console you.

Re: U.S. Now Says All Online Gambling Illegal, Not Just Sports Bets

#117

Post by the_watcher »

existencebox wrote: post #18
ejstronge wrote: post #5

As it may be of interest, here's the related portion of the Wire Act: Whoever being engaged in the business of betting or wagering knowingly uses a wire communication facility for the transmission in interstate or foreign commerce of bets or wagers or information assisting in the placing of bets or wagers on any sporting event or contest, or for the transmission of a wire communication which entitles the recipient to…

By my most literal interpretation of this law my inlaws can now be arrested for our march madness bracket. This seems absurd that we've let even this level of ambiguity come to pass in a country that used to pride itself on personal liberty; especially when the law was paid for by clear corporate cronyism and special interests to benefit from its passage. Can anyone legally versed tell me why I shouldn't be this ince…

Yes, in some places, a March Madness bracket and Super Bowl squares are illegal.

Re: U.S. Now Says All Online Gambling Illegal, Not Just Sports Bets

#118

Post by the_watcher »

razwall wrote: post #108
mimixco wrote: post #2

Horse racing (parimutuel wagering) is specifically allowed in some states, such as Florida. In those states, it's legal to bet online on any horse race around the world. Twinspires (the company that owns Churchill Downs) lets you bet online, for example: https://www.twinspires.com/

In case anyone is wondering, interstate wagering on horse races is specifically allowed in federal law by the Interstate Horseracing Act of 1978, so it's not affected by this reinterpretation of the Wire Act.

It's always funny (and often sad) to see the bills that have been passed exempting random industries and companies from violating laws like this.

Re: U.S. Now Says All Online Gambling Illegal, Not Just Sports Bets

#119

Post by shkkmo »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #91
shkkmo wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how is that different from hedging your bets? Insurance is gambling. The servicer is the house and always wins (unless they screw up). That is not to say that gambling can't serve purposes other than entertainment, because it can. That doesn't make it not gambling.

Hedging is when you act to counteract [part of] a bet. So you're right, insurance is like hedging a bet. Which makes it roughly the opposite of betting, in most uses. (If you "hedge" so far you're unbalanced in the other direction, you're not actually hedging your bets any more. "Hedge funds" aren't really for hedging if you use them as a primary investment.)

> Which makes it roughly the opposite of betting, in most uses.

In what way is it opposite? How is more betting somehow the opposite of betting?

Let's say I bet $10 that team A will beat team B with 1:10 odds (I would win 100) and then team A does really well so at half-time I bet $10 that B will beat team A with 1:2 odds (I would win 20)

I have now hedged my bets and I will at least break even. Under your understanding, that second bet is not gambling solely because of my motivation for placing it?

Let's say that instead I make a $20 bet at halftime that B will beat team A with 1:2 odds (I would win 40). Now I come out ahead no matter the outcome. Because I "over hedged" this is gambling again?

This doesn't make sense to me.

Re: U.S. Now Says All Online Gambling Illegal, Not Just Sports Bets

#120

Post by pnw_hazor »

existencebox wrote: post #18
ejstronge wrote: post #5

As it may be of interest, here's the related portion of the Wire Act: Whoever being engaged in the business of betting or wagering knowingly uses a wire communication facility for the transmission in interstate or foreign commerce of bets or wagers or information assisting in the placing of bets or wagers on any sporting event or contest, or for the transmission of a wire communication which entitles the recipient to…

By my most literal interpretation of this law my inlaws can now be arrested for our march madness bracket. This seems absurd that we've let even this level of ambiguity come to pass in a country that used to pride itself on personal liberty; especially when the law was paid for by clear corporate cronyism and special interests to benefit from its passage. Can anyone legally versed tell me why I shouldn't be this ince…

Its been illegal in Washington State since 1973

"Bracket pools, office sports pools, and fantasy sports have never been authorized as gambling activities in Washington State and are illegal."

https://www.wsgc.wa.gov/about-us/frequently-asked-questions/...

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