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Lies We Tell Kids

paulgraham.com

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Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#111

Post by glymor »

Both examples of lies about death don't seem to be lies about death. They would both seem to be an examples of lies designed to protect from details that would otherwise only cause pain. Doctors frequently tell both types of lie to adults.

Lies about death and sex etc are frequently this topic of lies between adults. That they take a different form is of questionable importance: they may just be because adults have to much experience to be so easy lied to, requiring a more elaborate lie (contrast became a star in the sky and the bible).

It would be interesting to ask what lies are told solely to children and are not simply more egregious examples of lies more generally told.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#112

Post by Prrometheus »

asnyder wrote: post #19

Besides being a woman, Marie Curie was the first and ONLY person to ever recieve a Nobel Prize in different sciences. Something her male counterparts have yet to do, so maybe there's something there besides her sex.

Was her work more important than Newton's, Darwin's, or Watson's? I'm not questioning that she was a great scientist. However, if you are going to remember three, she should not be one of them.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#113

Post by Alex3917 »

danohuiginn wrote: post #100
Alex3917 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main tool used by schools to manage large groups is competition. Whenever you get two or more people to compete then they have to be, by definition, doing the same thing. The rest of the rules are only there to cover the corner cases that competition misses. Similarly, no one who is the best at something can ever, by definition, push the human race forward. Because to be the best at something means you have to be…

To move forward you have to, by definition, be going in the same direction. The freakish geniuses change the human race, but it's the loyal hard-workers who move it forward. [sorry to quibble over semantics, but it was too obvious an opportunity to pass p]

"To move forward you have to, by definition, be going in the same direction."

The idea that progress has directionality is just a metaphor to aid visualization. It has no basis in reality. Your argument is a logical fallacy; I forget the name, but it involves using the same word in two different senses.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#114

Post by Prrometheus »

Alex3917 wrote: post #42
wallflower wrote: post #7

"Probably the biggest lie told in schools, though, is that the way to succeed is through following "the rules." In fact most such rules are just hacks to manage large groups efficiently." Reminds me of something Seth Godin (?) once said - that the whole purpose of school is to institutionalize mediocrity

The main tool used by schools to manage large groups is competition. Whenever you get two or more people to compete then they have to be, by definition, doing the same thing. The rest of the rules are only there to cover the corner cases that competition misses. Similarly, no one who is the best at something can ever, by definition, push the human race forward. Because to be the best at something means you have to be…

Odd, outside of the top 5% of the academic class I never saw much competitive spirit.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#115

Post by adamsmith »

pg -- do you have to work hard to remember particular conversations from your childhood? (E.g. in the 6th grade when your father contradicted your teacher.)

I can only seem to remember events related to girls, programming, and church. I don't remember particular conversations I had with my parents or teachers. Conversations with my favorite grandfather seem to stick out.

It seems like I should sit down and try to remember past realizations and conversations. I've never explicitly tried that.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#116

Post by Prrometheus »

sanj wrote: post #35

Does PG have kids? I'm not advocating ignoring the essay if he doesn't. But just as I'm leery of taking startup advice from someone who hasn't done one, I'd be tempted to discount this a bit. The issue is that there are forces afoot in your brain when you have kids which are deep, powerful and extraordinarily difficult to ignore. Pre-mammalian lower-reptilian brain stuff. Wanting to protect them is one of those.

As a descriptive account of what people do, he doesn't need kids. As a prescription for what people ought to do, we might trust someone more who has been through the process themself.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#117

Post by abstractbill »

cia_plant wrote: post #80
jamess wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm, hardly shocking. It has been established since at least the 80s that vitamin B12 is essential for brain development, and any number of large scale developmental studies have been carried out to that effect.There are no non-animal sources for vitamin B12. If you find any doctor of medicine who will recommend a vegan or vegetarian diet to either a breast feeding mother or to a child, then they ought to be struck o…

Unless you are a strict vegetarian (vegan), you can obtain B12 from eggs or dairy products. Most vegans are well aware of the danger of B12 deficiency, and either take supplements or eat foods fortified with B12. B12 supplements are inexpensive and widely available. So how exactly is B12 a serious problem for vegetarians?

There's also Marmite, which, according to wikipedia, is suitable for vegans (I'm a meat-eater though, so I have no idea really). I grew up eating practically nothing but Marmite sandwiches - it's awesome stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#118

Post by pchristensen »

sanj wrote: post #61
sanj wrote: post #35

Does PG have kids? I'm not advocating ignoring the essay if he doesn't. But just as I'm leery of taking startup advice from someone who hasn't done one, I'd be tempted to discount this a bit. The issue is that there are forces afoot in your brain when you have kids which are deep, powerful and extraordinarily difficult to ignore. Pre-mammalian lower-reptilian brain stuff. Wanting to protect them is one of those.

As a followup, it'd be interesting to know if any of the reviewers have raised kids.

I have a one month old and a 2.5yr old. Even before reading this, I've caught myself telling lies (or hiding truths) with my older kid.

We were watching a show about baboons on Animal Planet and the dominant male baboon killed and ate a baby impala (more graphically than I expected them to show). I was going to change the channel, but I asked myself "Why is it bad if my kid knows that some animals eat other animals?" I left it on and talked to her about how some animals get food. I also told her that it's different with people, because we've more or less agreed to let every person live.

Then I was going to change the channel again when there was a (again, more graphic than I expected) fight, I left it on and told her that animals fight, but it's not OK for people to fight. Something like "Animals fight, people hug".

So I guess I picked my lies, but I was conscious of it. My guiding principle is that I will

1) instruct my kids on correct and appropriate behavior

2) let them know that people have different expectations and not everyone behaves as well as I expect them to.

PS My wife was pissed that I let her watch the baboons killing and fighting :)

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#119

Post by sanj »

llimllib wrote: post #106
sanj wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that argument, all OBGYNs should be men. Or women who've not been pregnant.

negative, ghostrider. Suggesting that a male obgyn may have a different and valuable perspective from a female obgyn is not the same as suggesting that all OBGYNs should be men. To be explicit, I don't claim that all articles about parenthood should be written by non-parents, just that there's a particular type of value in ones that are, since they may more successfully divorce themselves from the visceral feelings o…

You're right.

So the question then becomes:

"Does a male obgyn may have a different and valuable perspective from a female obgyn?"

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#120

Post by pchristensen »

dgabriel wrote: post #33
pg wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lying to your kids is like the kind of intellectual fashion I wrote about in "What You Can't Say." No parent thinks they lie to their kids-- except of course in necessary or harmless ways -- just as no one thinks what they believe is an intellectual fashion. But in retrospect it turns out most parents do, just as in retrospect it turns out most people's beliefs are influenced by intellectual fashions. So if one has a…

The examples you presented to illustrate your argument ring false in my experience, and the premise seems flawed as a result. They may seem correct to you, depending on how your circle of friends behave. It might be more correct to say everybody lies outrageously to everybody else, and sometimes one person is a parent and one person is a child.

I agreed that the essay could use more examples. I understand that the examples might seem silly in 100 years (or even 10), but it would have benefited from things like "In 2008, many parents told their kids X"
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