Earlier quoted context omitted.
But any technology can be deadly if you deploy it widely enough. _WhatsApp_ has resulted in "bodies" and it doesn't have any AI in it at all. First airplanes were basically flying coffins. Cars until early 90s had very little chance of survival in collision above 40mph. Many drugs have serious, sometimes deadly side effects. Quarter of a million people die in hospitals in US alone every year due to medical errors. 10…
My guess is that most people feel AI should be held to a higher standard is because we feel the need to be able to audit the system in the case of mishaps. When ML becomes a high-level black box, we may not have the confidence in how to right that ship if it goes astray. With human errors, if we're (hopefully) empathetic creatures we at least have the hope of understanding the root of the error.
Machine learning has become alchemy (2017) [video]
111–120 of 134 posts
Re: Machine learning has become alchemy (2017) [video]
#112Earlier quoted context omitted.
There’s going to be people plugging their ears and shouting “but it’s just nonlinear function approximation!” all the way into the singularity.
Classic regression is only intelligible because there were only a few parameters and people could use ANOVA to try and interpret them. IMO ANOVA is alchemy as well and most people trained to use it, don’t fully understand it. Should we leave decisions to those kinds of models? Not to mention that part of what makes NN such a step forward is precisely the high nonlinearity. When you have millions of parameters, the co…
Yes, somebody can produce "magical" regression models with terms divorced from reality. But unsupervised learning is never guaranteed to produce a reality-grounded model, no matter the user's skill. It goes through steps, tries different transformations, and chooses the algorithm which led to the best result. Logic and understanding played no part. That sounds like alchemy. It definitely works, but alchemy also stumbled onto theories later explained by chemistry.
And, yes, anyone who doesn't consider the implications of the linear model behind ANOVA would also be a "magician."
Re: Machine learning has become alchemy (2017) [video]
#113That can be traced to the "Turing test". It was flawed then, and it is flawed now. Reproducing the behaviour of a thinking agent does not prove that a putative AI will not fail in a more detailed test, as demonstrated in numerous papers about "adversarial images".
Re: Machine learning has become alchemy (2017) [video]
#114Earlier quoted context omitted.
My guess is that most people feel AI should be held to a higher standard is because we feel the need to be able to audit the system in the case of mishaps. When ML becomes a high-level black box, we may not have the confidence in how to right that ship if it goes astray. With human errors, if we're (hopefully) empathetic creatures we at least have the hope of understanding the root of the error.
The good news is that these tools exist but they're called statistics.
For a large expensive system, the presence of either of the above may be unacceptable. Take something like the space shuttle program. If it was heavily reliant on black box AI, you might be able to build probabilities through tools like monte carlo simulations but you would be hard pressed for the government to put billions of dollars at risk without understanding the root cause of simulation failures
Re: Machine learning has become alchemy (2017) [video]
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
>> Those massive gains have yet to considered reliable enough to be considered trusthworthy. We're using them at Generic Health Insurance Megacorp in production - lots of enterprises are. If you are in the IT industry, it might be useful to spend some lab time with ML. Possibly you have a misconception of ML and/or confuse it with AI.
So, long story short, when groups were talking about governmental death panels, they in actuality were black box AIs that we have no understanding of, yet they make the core decisions and recommendations? Indeed...
We have some strict(and irritating for profit-centric people) governance... one of the more interesting pieces of governance is called the "85/15 rule", which roughly translated, means that if we take in $100 dollars, the government mandates we use $85 of them to pay your costs, and $15 to pay our staff, light bills, and any other expense we have. If we end up only using $80 to pay your costs, we have to refund the remaining $5 to your group plan.
Here's the obvious secret about health insurance that people like to have conspiracy theories about..I can't speak for other institutions in other countries, however...our stance is really simplistic: you can't pay premiums if you are not alive, therefore it is in our mutual interest for you to remain alive. All the conspiracy theories such as "but you don't want that cancer patient in your insurance group plan!" are just that..conspiracy theories. We absolutely do want that person in the group, because then that group's rates go up! The costs for that patient's care are more or less fixed(and known), built on the assumption of a terminal outcome. We're going to pay for it anyway, and try to make that miserable experience as pleasant as possible for everyone involved. That type of service is how you get repeat business, and a good reputation.
This likely falls on deaf ears. Feel free to return to the zealous insurance hatred, and I'm going to return to writing code. Not for death panel machines. Promise.
Re: Machine learning has become alchemy (2017) [video]
#116Another thing is that the industry should look at other AI techniques besides neural nets (NN) or find compliments to NN's. Genetic algorithms and Factor Tables should also be explored as well. Just because recent advances have been in NN's does not necessarily mean that's where the future should lead. Factor tables may allow more "dissection" & analysis by those without advanced degrees, for example. Experts may set up the framework and outline, but others can study and tune specifics. (https://github.com/RowColz/AI)
Re: Machine learning has become alchemy (2017) [video]
#117Earlier quoted context omitted.
So, long story short, when groups were talking about governmental death panels, they in actuality were black box AIs that we have no understanding of, yet they make the core decisions and recommendations? Indeed...
Geezus, not that type of health insurance. We're an insurance provider over a century old, blue cross and blue something or other. We're not in the business of death panels, and we have similar feelings towards the tin-foil-hat wearing masses that Catholic priests likely have towards people who assume since some priests are pedophiles, they must all be pedophiles. Some insurance companies(in the minority) are driven…
I'll only make a small comment about Catholic priests, since I was at one time a Catholic. The problem wasn't just some of the priesthood was into pedophilia, but that when the church was made aware, actively covered it up.
> one of the more interesting pieces of governance is called the "85/15 rule"
If I remember correctly, that was passed via the PPACA. And it is also in jeopardy with the continual "repeal and replace (with nothing)" procedures since the PPACA's passage and SCOTUS failed challenge to dismiss. I believe there is a current federal court case with 20 states or so suing on grounds of constitutionality. And with the makeup of SCOTUS now, has a good chance of having the whole law deemed unconstitutional.
> Here's the obvious secret about health insurance that people like to have conspiracy theories about..I can't speak for other institutions in other countries, however...our stance is really simplistic: you can't pay premiums if you are not alive, therefore it is in our mutual interest for you to remain alive. All the conspiracy theories such as "but you don't want that cancer patient in your insurance group plan!" are just that..conspiracy theories. We absolutely do want that person in the group, because then that group's rates go up! The costs for that patient's care are more or less fixed(and known), built on the assumption of a terminal outcome. We're going to pay for it anyway, and try to make that miserable experience as pleasant as possible for everyone involved. That type of service is how you get repeat business, and a good reputation.
My anger, as well as many other peoples' anger, is the fact that this system is opaque. I go to a doctor, and have procedure/drug prescribed, and there's this song and dance about "preapproval", "permission" and all other sorts of roadblocks. Whether the medical insurance company is for/non profit doesn't matter too much to me. All I know is that the medical insurance is sitting between me and my doctor and making decisions about my care without a medical degree and no patient-doctor association.
And the moment medical insurance is taken out, the prices go up by 10 fold. That's mot the medical insurance companies' fault... But that's the end result for us. And medical insurance companies become de-facto arbiters of patients' health. Again, when questions are shoved in this black box, magic answers come out.
And what I was criticizing is that the use of AI in this context means that the decisions are now truly black-boxed, rather than just a process of actuarilists (sp?). That was subpoena-able and discoverable. The fact that some neural network algo was trained on GBs of data and outputs magic weights of "accept or deny" is an anathema. Those decisions should be understandable. Those decisions should be defensible (as long as we have a profit-based medical system).
Even decision trees would show traceability of how an input got the appropriate result. And if there were questionable or illegal things in there, then they could be challenged or changed.
> This likely falls on deaf ears. Feel free to return to the zealous insurance hatred, and I'm going to return to writing code. Not for death panel machines. Promise.
Not at all. I do have grievances with how the US does medical, and insurance is only one part of the whole. I come from a point that we should have health provided by tax dollars. We as a nation already spend triple what France does peer capita, yet only a small fraction gets care. Simply put, too many people slip through the cracks. I wouldn't say it's a zealous hatred. It's a well informed long-stewing anger that people who are ill can't get help/fixed.
Thank you for the discussion :)
Re: Machine learning has become alchemy (2017) [video]
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the context of linear regression, there is no particular reason to assume noise is i.i.d. and Gaussian. The former is part of the the Gauss-Markov conditions, under which OLS is BLUE (the "best linear unbiased estimator"). The latter is not necessary at all. And of the Gauss-Markov conditions can be violated to varying degrees of consequence. In fact, in real data, these assumptions are almost always violated. The…
For the benefit of laypeople like myself: - IID: "independent and identically distributed", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_and_identically_di... - OLS: "ordinary least squares", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinary_least_squares (I think)
The grandparent to your content was raising an objection that, actually, linear regression, a very old technique which in plain English means fitting a straight line to a scatterplot (but in any number of dimensions), has a great deal of theory around it. The simplest form of solving a linear regression is by "ordinary least squares" (minimizing the sum of squared deviations from the fit line): OLS.
The grandparent was correct that especially in the mid-20th century to late 20th century, a lot of people did work on the conditions under which OLS works. What "works" means in a statistical sense is that it's efficient (has low uncertainty about the correct estimate), unbiased (on average gets the right answer), consistent (as you have more and more data gets closer to the right answer). Under a set of fairly impossible conditions about the real world data generated process, OLS is "BLUE" (the best linear unbiased estimator). Best here refers to efficiency, and unbiasedness I've already explained. OLS divides the data into structural elements (things that can be explained by the predictors you put into the estimator) and stochastic elements (the noise left over -- the deviations from the line). If we specify the correct model, the stochastic elements are the underlying stochasticity in the universe. If we specify an incorrect model, some of our omitted structural elements get put into the estimation of the noise.
The grandparent noted that two assumptions made in linear regression are that the underlying stochastic disturbances in the data are i.i.d. (each is a random draw from the same distribution) and Gaussian (form a normal / bell curve). These are not assumptions, these are conditions under which OLS is BLUE. The latter is not a necessary condition at all, the distribution can take any form. The former is the most succinct way to express one of the conditions.
My comment was to raise that actually when we use linear regression in the world, we rarely use classical OLS. In the real world underlying disturbances differ between observations. Imagine if I am running a regression on cross-country data, but while my US data is very precisely measured thanks to the widespread availability of polling firms, my Mexican data involves census enumerators going to rural villages. We might imagine that all of my US data is more precisely measured than all of my Mexican data, so we would expect the underlying stochasticity to differ between country. This is called clustering. Also, because we almost certainly do not have the correct model for the data (say log-dollars income predicts the result, not dollars income, but I put in dollars income), it can be the case that observations with higher values of our predicted Y also have more uncertainty. This is called heteroskedasticity. But the good news is we have answers to both, we just don't use OLS, we use more modern estimators. Yay!
In general the world has moved away from rigorously teaching the conditions under which OLS and works and toward teaching more flexible estimators that work under less restrictive conditions. And in general in ML, people aren't using anything that looks anything like OLS, because ML has specific goals OLS is inappropriate for -- namely minimizing overfitting and out-of-sample error, where OLS is designed to maximize the precision of estimates of the slope parameters (how a given predictor affects the outcome). So all the work in OLS theory doesn't really translate to a machine learning setting, where many methods have no theory at all.
Hope this is a plainer English version.
Re: Machine learning has become alchemy (2017) [video]
#119Earlier quoted context omitted.
The annoying part is that ML is not sold to the world like this. I would say the truth (I believe) in this comment is the "dirty little secret" of our industry. Everyone working on it knows this but the research and VC dollars are flowing in so no one wants to talk about it too much.
Can confirm, worked at an AI hype company for over a year and built all their systems outside the NN internals. There is going to be a correction.
Re: Machine learning has become alchemy (2017) [video]
#120It is simple to say deep learning is based on "alchemy" or "engineering" or whatever it is that isn't strong theory. And it's reasonable to say deep learning has a lot of mathematical and statistical intuitions but doesn't have a strong theory - maybe just doesn't yet have a strong theory or maybe can never get one. So this is by now a standard argument. The standard answers I think have been: 1) Well, we are discove…
Worth also bearing in mind that we've been here before in other fields. Alchemy ultimately became chemistry. Even in the Victorian era when, for fairly large swathes of the periodic table, and different types of compound, we already had a quite good experimental understanding of chemical reactions in terms of their constituent components and products, along with the conditions under which those reactions occur, we st…
Indeed but that might be where the analogy breaks down.
I think one say that we just don't know how far we can take "experimental computer science" - where the experimental part is making "random" or actually "seat-of-the-pants" programs and seeing what they do. This is simply new and one could create a physics on top of this particular kind of experimentation is yet to be seen.