How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage • Hacker News Board

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#111

Post by krapp » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 1:53 PM UTC

douglaswlance wrote: post #67

yakcyll wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Populist has a derogatory connotation For a very good reason. > insulting peoples will seems improper It does seem improper, but drawing the connection between calling out people drawn to populism and insulting them is one of the least discrete attempts at muddying the waters I've seen recently.

Socialism is populism on the Left (i.e. distributing wealth at the point of a gun). Populism on the Right is instead via a more democratic method of building a strong market that lifts all ships.

>Populism on the Right is instead via a more democratic method of building a strong market that lifts all ships.

...also at the point of a gun.

You're being disingenuous in evoking the monopoly of force but only applying it to "the left", in order to imply that, "socialist" governance is more coercive (and thus less legitimate) than any other.

If you live in a state that collects taxes or regulates the market, or any system other than anarchy, then you live under a regime that distributes wealth at the point of a gun.

And with anarchy, you're just trading the monopoly on violence for a free market of violence.

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#112

Post by asianthrowaway » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 1:53 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #94

XCabbage wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hasn't the majority of the criticism of Facebook been about enabling communication? Indeed, hasn't that been the cause of most of the Left's pearl-clutching about social media's influence on politics over the last few years? Many, if not most, of the complaints about Russian "interference" in the US election and Brexit that I've seen the Left being so distressed about consisted primarily of Russians saying things abo…

No, a key part of this is misrepresentation: Russians saying things about politics as themselves would be one thing, but Russians pretending to be Americans en masse with thousands of fake accounts and promoting obviously false rumours and driven by audience-targeting ad technology starts to become a problem. (This is not an argument against anonymity; I don't need to know where these accounts really live. I do need…

I'm still really unconvinced by this whole "Russians influenced the election" narrative. I doubt a few articles written in poor English about how Hillary runs pedophile sex rings would have had a greater influence on the electorate than Hillary being actively endorsed by nearly every respectable establishment media outlet.

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#113

Post by ulrikrasmussen » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 1:54 PM UTC

purplethinking wrote: post #16

I don't like Facebook more than anyone else, but at this point aren't we just blaming them for enabling communication? By all means, criticize Facebook for privacy issues, but not for stuff like this, unless you actually want censorship on the largest scale ever in history.

I think it is fair to criticize unedited internet communication in general, as we have just recently learned that this form of communication did not result in the improvement of public discourse that everyone might have hoped. Facebook just happens to be the largest platform offering that.

I don't think it is fair to consider large-scale censorship as the only other alternative. Having some kind of neutral editorial process to filter out the unsubstantiated, hateful opinions and leave room for a more nuanced discussion raises the level of discourse, and is the model that have been offered by traditional media for a long time.

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#114

Post by upofadown » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 1:56 PM UTC

jklinger410 wrote: post #61

Can someone explain the nuances of these protests? Am I wrong to find it weird that the seemingly liberal, "woke" French are rioting over a carbon tax? Aren't carbon taxes progressive and environmentally responsible?

These particular carbon taxes are not revenue neutral and as a result are perceived as greenwashed regular taxes. If you are trying to change public behaviour it is best to just change the balance of taxes otherwise the general tax increase becomes a distraction from the ultimate goal.

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#115

Post by seren » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 1:56 PM UTC

Totoradio wrote: post #97

jklinger410 wrote: post #61

Can someone explain the nuances of these protests? Am I wrong to find it weird that the seemingly liberal, "woke" French are rioting over a carbon tax? Aren't carbon taxes progressive and environmentally responsible?

It's very complicated to explain because it's not a "traditional" movement run by a leader/political party/union. Protesters are all over the political spectrum. It's the combination of (real and/or perceived): - rise of inequalities - new taxes (including the carbon tax) - removal of taxes impacting only the rich - sentiment of neglect of the rural areas by the government - disdain for lower classes by Macron - lowe…

And maybe interesting, or dangerous depending on the point of view, amongst the rioters you got both far-left and far-right movements on the same side, which is something that does not happen that often.

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#116

Post by AlexB138 » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 1:57 PM UTC

purplethinking wrote: post #16

I don't like Facebook more than anyone else, but at this point aren't we just blaming them for enabling communication? By all means, criticize Facebook for privacy issues, but not for stuff like this, unless you actually want censorship on the largest scale ever in history.

I'm with you. I haven't used Facebook for years because I think it's unhealthy and disagree with their business practices. I believe that that is the correct response when you have a problem with a service that isn't necessary.

I'm of the view point that censorship is exactly the point of articles like this. They want Facebook to enforce a very bias view of what is acceptable speech, and intentionally conflate being a communication platform with being responsible for the outcomes of that communication.

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#117

Post by Veen » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 1:57 PM UTC

asianthrowaway wrote: post #104

seren wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While not being perfect, that is still far better than regime in Zimbabwe, Venezuela or North Korea, where the head of state keeps the power as long as he is alive, or is replaced by force by another thug.

I'm pretty sure Venezuela was (and still is) a democracy. I think people tend to conflate liberalism (in the classical sense), and democracy. You can have undemocratic liberal states (the Austro-Hungarian empire was a good example).

Undemocratic liberal states only stay liberal for as long as suits wealthy elites. Venezuala is technically a democracy, but, as I said in another comment, you also need strong institutions for a functioning democracy. Venzuala has a weak court system and Maduro didn't allow opposition parties to take part in the 2017 presidential elections, so it's not exactly a model democracy.

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#118

Post by dao- » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 1:58 PM UTC

zabana wrote: post #108

dao- wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When journalists fail to adhere to journalistic standards they should be criticized for that. What's your point?

I guess the fact that we have to separate independent journalists from the ones working for privately owned outlets is problematic in itself.

Right, what I'm saying is that we should uphold objective standards rather than just saying independent journalists are generally more/less trustworthy than established ones.

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#119

Post by ulrikrasmussen » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 2:00 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #53

purplethinking wrote: post #16

I don't like Facebook more than anyone else, but at this point aren't we just blaming them for enabling communication? By all means, criticize Facebook for privacy issues, but not for stuff like this, unless you actually want censorship on the largest scale ever in history.

It’s odd because they pick and choose which “violence” is right and wrong. When Arab spring (in the end a very destabilizing movement) was facilitated by FB and Twitter it was great. When it facilitates caravan protests it’s great. When it facilitates anti-tax movements that threaten viability of an unpopular (vis a vis locals) but popular internationally (ie elites) then it’s seen as facilitating “bad” protests. Obv…

Media has always been biased like that, because they report the news relative to the established opinion at the time and place where they are published. It is easy in hindsight to pick examples that paints a picture of manipulation.

Re: How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage

#120

Post by simias » Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 2:01 PM UTC

jdhn wrote: post #13

Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Personally, I feel that a lot of this hate towards Facebook is done by media types who are jealous that Facebook has stolen their role as a place to find news, no matter if it's fake or real.

It's not Facebook's fault, I agree. Or at least not just Facebook. It's our society, it's capitalism, it's the fact that we've accepted for decades that as we all collectively get richer and richer we'd accept that some would earn 100k$ a month and others would earn 600$ and that's all fine and acceptable. It's bound to break. It's obscene. The fake news are just a convenient way for people to find scapegoats. As long as people will look up and see people who earn a 100 times as much as they do how can we ever imagine that they'll accept even more sacrifices? Is it fake news that every time somebody talks about raising taxes on the riches they respond with threats of job cuts and moving away? How can you expect any kind of solidarity in this situation? This can only lead to a revolution.

The gilets jaunes is not a political movement, it's a fuck you movement. Like many of Trump's electors in the USA, like Bolsonaro's electors in Brazil, like many of the M5S electors in Italy. Populists and fascists always have a simple answer to everybody's problem, if we can't give the people a solution, they will, and they'll win.

Greed is killing us all. It's killing the climate, it's killing democracy, it's going to be the end of us. Merry Christmas everyone!