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Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

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Re: Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

#111
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course electric automated trucks could change all that. Unmanned trucks crossing long distances of rural America sounds like a recipe for hijacking loads.

Hijacking trucks filled to the brim with sensors sounds like a recipe for jail time. The logistics of stopping and looting a truck involves too many parties, and ensuring that each party is following enough security protocols to not be identified via face, vehicle, or gait will ensure that only a few small sophisticated heists will ever be successful.

> ...filled to the brim with sensors...

Has someone actually worked out that tons of sensors will cost far less than people-driven trucks? As it is, fuel is the big cost, followed by driver salary [1]. L5 autonomous driving is not going to come cheap, that gear is going to price as close to 3X driver salary as they can get away with, on the assumption they can run close to around the clock. Whose margin is getting compressed for the additional sensor gear?

This doesn't even touch upon that as soon as L5 is available and if 24x7 L5 operations approved, you suddenly just increased industry transport capacity 3X, leading to a sudden oversupply in certain segments and scenarios, while still requiring a certain baseline to handle peak load demands. That chaos will cause a lot of margin compression, and lots of rosy profit projections from L5 autonomous driving without drivers will turn into a race for finding more customer demand.

I can see some modest sensor gear, but nothing fancy, and not a lot of them. Perhaps high resolution visual and night vision cameras coupled with lots of street camera access, with lots of back-end software processing will deter most theft attempts?

We might ironically get to L5, only to stick lower-paid security guards on a random number of trucks.

[1] https://www.thetruckersreport.com/infographics/cost-of-truck...

Re: Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

#112
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course electric automated trucks could change all that. Unmanned trucks crossing long distances of rural America sounds like a recipe for hijacking loads.

Hijacking trucks filled to the brim with sensors sounds like a recipe for jail time. The logistics of stopping and looting a truck involves too many parties, and ensuring that each party is following enough security protocols to not be identified via face, vehicle, or gait will ensure that only a few small sophisticated heists will ever be successful.

Anecdata: a fellow driver told me the story of a truck stopped at a light in "a bad part of town." Thieves rushed the back of the trailer, cut the lock and opened the door, just in case there was something worth grabbing.

Another, parked overnight with a load of electronics at the southern boarder. He woke up and discovered the trailer had been broken in to. Yet it didn't seem anything was missing. Maybe something "extra" had been placed on the trailer before it crossed in from Mexico?

In our company we're reminded when we'll travel through high theft areas.

If we're pulling a trailer designated as "high value," wherever we are, we're not allowed to pick it up unless we have the fuel and legal hours to go at least 200 miles before we stop.

My vague point is that every security move in history and to come can be defeated, if it's worth it to someone. And it's always with it, to someone.

[BTW, it "feels" unlikely that a judge or jury would convict based on gait analysis.]

Re: Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

#113
post #40
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Index fund investors are classified as "passive investors," while others are "active investors." The main investment risk to index funds growing is that, if everybody is a passive investor, then the passive investors are worse off as there are very few active investors who actually try and value companies appropriately. On the other hand, if the market is littered with active investors, then the market is likely more…

As an "active investor" your competition is HFT algos on servers located as physically close as possible to the stock market in order to achieve superhuman reflexes. Which you have absolutely zero hope of beating. I'd rather see slower, predictable gains than bet my nest egg trying to go toe-to-toe with hyperefficient machines -- or hand it off to some Manhattan finance bro making that bet on my behalf.

I'm going to upvote your comment because I don't think it deserves to be downvoted, and at the time of writing it's grayed out for me.

That being said - you're incorrect about about competition between active investors and HFT. That's a common misconception. HFT primarily occupies a marketing making role, which means they try to play both sides of the spread very quickly for a very, very small profit on each trade. There are elements of valuation here, but what's really much more important is very small holding times and low latency turnaround. The ideal goal of an HFT operation is a trading strategy which earns a profit 51% of the time and trades very frequently.

In contrast, active investors - whether quantitative, fundamental or some mix thereof - care more about being correct on fewer bets, which have more money behind them and which are held for longer periods of time (hours, days, weeks or months). These funds are not competing with HFT: HFT only competes with HFT. This is because HFT activity and active investing activity are completely alien to one another. HFT has a material impact on the profit margins (slippage), volume and liquidity available to active investors, but strictly speaking they don't actually compete (except in the narrow sense that you "compete" with a car salesman to buy a car for a better price).

HFT is a relatively tiny portion of the financial industry which gets outsized attention. It's generally more accurate to think of HFT firms as financial utility providers rather than investing firms.

Re: Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

#114
post #81
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find your comment fascinating but even though I think I understand perfectly what an index fund is, I don't quite understand what it is that S&P sells for so much money. Could you clarify this for me? I.e. who buys from you, and what is it they buy?

The S&P 500, along with a lot of their other products are proprietary and not easily reproducible. S&P doesn’t publish how it generates its indices, so they can charge a lot of money. Would it be that hard to generate an index that had similiar exposure as an S&P index? Maybe not, but S&P is good at what they do and they have a lot of brand recognition.

This isn't exactly accurate. One of the requirements for publicly traded funds (ETFs) is that they need to be "replicable", meaning that anyone should be able to read the methodologies (which are required to be public) and understand it and be able to come to the same final basket of securities at the same weights.

This, in practice, is very difficult even with everything public, though, due to a variety of differences such as data differences between vendors, "expert judgment" for unforeseen circumstances, and the mere fact that sometimes methodologies can be confusing, complex, or have vague language. Most indices, unlike the 500, are pretty hard on rules. The 500 is a rare index that is purely discretionary. They do give guidance on general guidelines, though.

Re: Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

#115
post #7

If the stock market becomes dominated by copycats copying each other , can it price equity risk accurately?

The real question is, what is the minimum number of active investors required for accurate pricing of risk in a market dominated by index funds? I'm not aware of an answer that is widely accepted as clearly right.

In theory it might only be one! If there's only one active investor, and they find stocks that the index funds have not priced correctly, then the active investor can pounce, make some money, and move the stock toward a more accurate price. The more they do this, the more money they will make, and the more resources they will have for finding and taking advantage of mis-priced stocks.

The real trick is telling what an "accurate" price is, so that you can evaluate whether the market is working properly. Since the purpose of the market is to find the accurate price, asking whether the price it finds is accurate seems like begging the question.

Is the stock market pricing risk accurately now? Was it pricing risk more accurately 40 years ago, before the growth of index funds? There have been plenty of bull and bear markets during that time... and some nasty unexpected shocks.

Re: Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

#116
post #98

I work in this industry. I'm on the indexing side of it, not the ETF/fund side. We obviously have relationships with all the major fund providers, especially the three big names mentioned in the article. And I happen to work for the big dog - S&P. "Why? Partly because of two high barriers to entry: the huge scale enjoyed by the big indexers would be difficult to replicate by new entrants; and index fund prices (their…

How would you handle the fractional share ownership concept? A person with $10,000 of SPY shares probably doesn't even own a full share of most components[1]. And even ones that she does own more than a share of like AAPL, it won't be an integer. [1] for example, you would need a $270,000 investment before you own a full share of SRCL.

People are used to thinking of votes in terms of integers, but if you think of it in terms of points then fractions don't make a difference, really. If you own 100 shares of a stock you get to 100 votes. That's been the standard forever. This is just extending it to say that if you own .01 shares you get .01 votes. It's still the same concept and same math, just not on an integer basis.

Re: Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not entirely sure your conclusion is correct. Almost 40% of all US freight is moved via rail. The reason passenger trains suck in the US is because our railroads are built for and prioritized for freight. When Berkshire Hathaway purchased BNSF, they noted that trains connect companies between the two coasts of the US. It is often the case that a company that produces something is on one coast but the port where i…

Believe it or not, sometimes products are unloaded on one coast, transported by rail, then loaded on a ship on the other coast.

> Believe it or not, sometimes products are unloaded on one coast, transported by rail, then loaded on a ship on the other coast.

That is surprising, since shipping by water is dramatically cheaper than any other form of surface shipping, even factoring the extra distance to sail down to the Panama Canal. What's the point of adding the land leg?

Re: Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

#118

Is there anything legally preventing these funds from having some kind of system where you have fractional voting rights proportional to your number of shares in the mutual fund vs. the weight of the company in the index it represent? e.g. You have 100 shares of a mutual fund that has 1% of its holdings in some company- thus you have 1 vote for that company's shareholder ballot, or whatever the fractional representat…

The article says that this solution has unintended consequences too, since you are now transferring voting rights from the share owner, who cares about the long term performance of the company, to share renters, who generally just care about the short term, which is counterproductive. Although I'm not sure I get that - I don't quite see how the renter's would be especially more short sighted - it's not like the fund…

> you are now transferring voting rights from the share owner, who cares about the long term performance of the company, to share renters, who generally just care about the short term, which is counterproductive.

This logic is backwards; index fund holders are more likely to hold their shares for a longer period of time, compared to day traders. The whole point of index fund investing is to avoid short holds.

Re: Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

#119
The summary: if Coke and Pepsi are owned by different guys, Coke will take an action that makes them an additional $1 million, even if (especially if) it causes Pepsi to lose $1 billion. Most commonly, cut prices.

If the two companies are owned by the same guy, they have the incentive not to compete with each other since their owner cares about the sum of their profits. This is why one wouldn’t be allowed to acquire the other. But the effect is the same when a single index fund owns a large chunk of both companies. The companies are encouraged to compete not too fiercely with each other.

Re: Bogle Sounds a Warning on Index Funds

#120
post #97
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, I have a few friends who work in the railroad industry and they are currently seeing something close to this. The company is almost entirely owned by large institutional funds. Union Pacific has a huge drive for constantly increasing efficiency. Their profits are up significantly year over year, but this fall they cut about 500 jobs from their headquarters in Omaha, around 6% of their Nebraska employees,…

The big index funds aren't exactly known as activist investors. Even if it's "Wall Street" collectively, it's not Vanguard or State Street that is pushing Union Pacific to cut costs.

It's a side effect of having real number feedback on how you're doing. Management can't just make up their own metrics anymore, there is a third party that tells you how well you are doing, and that third party wants to see constant growth or they'll start dropping your price and the financial press will pick up on that and start writing articles about how millennials are killing the rail industry.

It takes real gumption for the upper management to say "screw what the greedy bastards on Wall Street think, we're doing just fine." Especially when their yearly bonuses are tied to what those guys on Wall Street think.

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