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American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island

nytimes.com

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Re: American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island

#111

Post by qiqing »

Jtsummers wrote: post #33
classicsnoot wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if your generosity in interpretation extends to modern cultures and their borders.

By "modern" I'll interpret that to mean "a nation generally participating in the global community": I'd say, they have every right to defend their borders from invaders. But they also have knowledge that these islanders don't have. They have an understanding that outsiders are not all belligerent and to be feared or non-entities to be killed (though some will act counter to that knowledge, see the stoked fear in the…

On whether they "know" better -- the first time someone who looked like that intruder showed up, it was a British guy in 1880 who kidnapped 6 people, only 4 of whom came back alive. Not exactly a great first impression of the outside world.

Re: American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island

#112

Post by nindalf »

Lots of people talking about his intent to convert the Sentinelese. Maybe that's relevant, but I feel like the main talking point should be that he went to a place where everyone warned him not to go to because it was dangerous and forbidden. He knew the risks and deliberately tried to circumvent the patrols by setting out at night time. Patrols that existed as much for his safety as for the islanders'. Even when met with initial hostility, he persisted in try to land on an island where he was clearly unwelcome.

This man deserves no sympathy.

Re: American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island

#113

Post by Jtsummers »

verroq wrote: post #94
Jtsummers wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "modern" I'll interpret that to mean "a nation generally participating in the global community": I'd say, they have every right to defend their borders from invaders. But they also have knowledge that these islanders don't have. They have an understanding that outsiders are not all belligerent and to be feared or non-entities to be killed (though some will act counter to that knowledge, see the stoked fear in the…

I don’t believe in moral relativism. They don’t get a pass for not knowing better. Just as their victims didn’t get a pass for not knowing better.

> I don’t believe in moral relativism.

Good for you? The homeless, penniless child should never steal the loaf of bread when all other, apparent, options are exhausted.

> They don’t get a pass for not knowing better.

They get a pass because it was already decided a long time ago that they were too dangerous for outsiders to be allowed near. They're contained, and by the survey numbers their population is dwindling. In another century the island could well be uninhabited. A small speck of isolated land that no one has any need to go to is easy enough to leave alone.

> Just as their victims didn’t get a pass for not knowing better.

Except their victim (in this case) certainly did know better. They even chased him off multiple times before finally killing him.

Re: American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island

#114

Post by kbutler »

malmsteen wrote: post #80
JPKab wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please explain to me how the fact that he happens to be American is proven to be causal here? I guess you make a good point. After all, the missionaries who converted indigenous populations all over the world were all from the USA. Oh wait, no. The vast majority of the Christian missions were founded by Europeans. Arabs converted millions to Islam hundreds of years ago. But yeah, they were all infected with American…

I think he implies americans are more stupid than europeans nowadays #trump #mormons #altright #bigots. We dont really have that in europe Edit: "some" americans of course.

That's right, anti-immigration sentiment, nationalists, and neo-nazis are unique to the US.

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/09/10/right-wi...

Brexit, chemnitz riots - those are all American...

Re: American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island

#115

Post by RufusJacksons »

yesenadam wrote: post #11

..a remote Indian island, North Sentinel, that I learned all about after it was mentioned on HN a couple of weeks ago. Small world! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sentinel_Island ..which led to reading about other "uncontacted peoples", a fascinating and sad story. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontacted_peoples edit: Oh, it was 8 days ago. I submitted this[1] ripping yarn about an American with an anthropolog…

Don’t know if read down to the Waorani people on that wiki article - but I followed the same trajectory from the HN post last week. I’ve had the pleasure to have hiked out from Shell Ecuador to a Waoroni village and spent some tine with them (they speared a number of Christian missionaries to death in the 50’s) and it’s quite fascinating how their culture has changed from one of the most violant to a peaceful one, and their population size has increased substantially since their conversion

The “Christian” movie The End of The Spear documents that tribe and I’m happy to say that I’ve met many of the original “spearers” and they are alive and well and mentoring the young villagers on living peacefully

Re: American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island

#116

Post by flocial »

projectramo wrote: post #38

The comments here are horrific. Yes, I don't think we should invade the lives of indigenous people any more than you do. And yes, I think this young man was mistaken and misguided. But, he went in with the best of intentions, and he died. You just don't believe what he did. Imagine a techie died while trying to teach rails to the homeless (which, I can only assume, some of you might be more sympathetic towards), woul…

More like tried to teach rails to a tribe of armed COBOL programmers in the most dangerous part of the inner city. "DHH tweeted to me in my dreams".

Re: American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island

#117

Post by DoreenMichele »

I'm not too thrilled with the comments here that are defending his decision to go there as clearly some kind of good thing because his stated motive was Christianity. I'm just going to leave this here and say no more on the matter:

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

https://www.biblica.com/bible/niv/matthew/7/

Re: American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island

#118

Post by dragonwriter »

Udik wrote: post #83
WhompingWindows wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their religion and its proponents teach them to spread the word, they won't take a break. It's what separates Christianity and Islam from the majority of non-proselytizing religions.

I don't see catholic christians setting up missions with the primary purpose of proselytizing. In many respects it is true that American evangelical churches are much more retrograde than the Catholic church itself, promoting a brand of religion that is, for example, self-righteous, anti-scientific, and putting particular emphasis on the more archaic and brutal Old Testament.

> I don't see catholic christians setting up missions with the primary purpose of proselytizing.

To the extent that is true, it is a post-Vatican II reform (and proselytization is still an important function of Catholic missionary work, though the method of more persuasion by example.)

Re: American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island

#119

Post by wpietri »

JPKab wrote: post #36
deanCommie wrote: post #12

> Mr. Pathak said Mr. Chau, believed to be 26 or 27 and from Washington State, may have been trying to convert the islanders to Christianity. Right before he left in his kayak, Mr. Chau gave the fishermen a long note. In it, police officials said, he had written that Jesus had bestowed him with the strength to go to the most forbidden places on Earth. A perfect storm of Christian and American arrogance.

Please explain to me how the fact that he happens to be American is proven to be causal here? I guess you make a good point. After all, the missionaries who converted indigenous populations all over the world were all from the USA. Oh wait, no. The vast majority of the Christian missions were founded by Europeans. Arabs converted millions to Islam hundreds of years ago. But yeah, they were all infected with American…

Proven to be causal? Like we'd clone 1000 John Allen Chaus, raise them around the globe, and see how many of them do something fatally arrogant relating to overseas travel?

As an American who has lived on 4 continents, I can confirm that American tourists quite often live up to the stereotype. I have a variety of painful memories of times I've had to intervene and explain things and/or translate for aggressively clueless Americans. Many travelers are great, of course. But I still think the stereotype is justified.

It makes sense, I guess. We grow up in a country big enough that we can travel widely without learning another language or learning much about dealing with different customs. And our wealth and our culture of American exceptionalism make it easy for us to spin the globe, plop a finger down, and expect that we can go there and do as we please. Often it works, even if it does rub the locals the wrong way. And sometimes, as here, it doesn't work at all.

Re: American Is Killed by Bow and Arrow on Remote Indian Island

#120

Post by Jtsummers »

crooked-v wrote: post #105
Jtsummers wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "modern" I'll interpret that to mean "a nation generally participating in the global community": I'd say, they have every right to defend their borders from invaders. But they also have knowledge that these islanders don't have. They have an understanding that outsiders are not all belligerent and to be feared or non-entities to be killed (though some will act counter to that knowledge, see the stoked fear in the…

This wasn't a "kill on sight" situation, though: he was driven off with warning shots first, and was only killed after several attempts over two days to step foot on the island. That's much more patience than I'd expect from, say, North Korean border guards.

Indeed. Which is why the moral outrage is particularly absurd. He had multiple chances to escape with his life from people he knew intended him harm.
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