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NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

theguardian.com

111–120 of 477 posts

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#111
Cities like NYC are overcrowded and dysfunctional, but our financial system allows dysfunctional and failing systems to continue to operate up until the point to which they physically collapse and start either entering prolonged periods of obvious mechanical non-function and/or killing people in embarrassing numbers.

Without all the bailouts, the MTA would have failed decades ago and would have had to have been restructured. Because NYC's political priorities have been to conserve past structures and agreements at the expense of the present and the future, you will see performance go down and down to the point to which 1950s performance will look like 1950s science fiction.

I don't think I would expect anything to change until a major accident kills a large number of people in one day. You should expect the people in charge of the system as it exists today to keep getting millions of dollars as service continues to degrade. But the MTA knows this, so they stop the trains constantly when there is any chance of a collision, so you get the slow motion choke for money that you have had for decades.

There's a great option if you are not happy with New York City and its governance: leave! NYC is a machine for fleecing young people who want to move there with heads full of movies and TV and rich foreign potentates with more money than sense. It's not a great place to live if you want to have a comfortable middle class lifestyle. It might have been that 30+ years ago, but not anymore.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#112
post #67

The NYT had a great article on how the subway got in the situation it is in. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/nyregion/new-york-subway-...

When even the NYT is willing to implicitly criticize unions, you know it's gotten bad: Even in the face of the financial crisis and budget shortfalls, the M.T.A. has given concession after concession to its main labor union. Members of the Transport Workers Union got a total of 19 percent in pay raises between 2009 and 2016, compared with 12 percent for the city’s teachers union over the same period. The labor contra…

The NYC MTA has a lot of workers who do enormous amount of overtime, which explains the high pay. Add that a good percentage of employees will be relatively specialized trades.

A cursory search shows a train driver making $31/hr, which doesn't seem excessive.

I am also wary of the tactic of showing MTA workers as over-paid compared to a notoriously underpaid profession (e.g. teachers, who in this case held barely above inflation).

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#113
post #13

The article briefly mentioned competition from ride sharing services but I wonder to what extent it's made an impact. Anecdotally, given how cheap Uber and Lyft are in Manhattan (typically $4-5 for a shared ride), I often find myself opting for that instead of dealing with the hassles of the subway system. Both are unreliable when it comes to timeliness, as ride sharing services often take longer than expected (espec…

ride sharing services are the new bogeyman and politicians and others are simply relying on the old mechanism of, say it enough times and people will believe its true.

they love to tout huge mileage numbers because it sounds impressive but when compared to the whole of what is driven its one percent or less. better yet a large amount of ride sharing is off peak.

the reason of course is money, the subsidies to mass transit systems are in the tens of billions which in turn allow for existing systems to not have to be competitive or even maintain their lines because they know they can grab more cash. if anything beyond the hundreds of billions in deferred maintenance many light rail systems have there is nearly similar in pension liabilities.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#114

Not surprised. Not only are we lacking in physical infrastructure, but also technological infrastructure. I still don't understand how we do not have stations like in developed Asian countries like Japan or Hong Kong. The trains are "one" unit and the stations are doubled door with people at each station assisting (or ticketing..) you if needed. The train practically drive themselves. The conductor is there for emerg…

Hong Kong and Nanjing subway systems are spectacular. I dont speak or read the language and never once did I get lost because there are super easy to understand signs _everywhere_ and usually an electronic map that indicates the station you just left and the one you're going to, above all the doors to the cars inside. Never once gotten lost, embarrassed i can't say the same for BART.

Im an Australian so native English speaker, in NYC for a few days and can not figure out the god damn subway to save my life.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#115

> Critics say it is bad service that is driving people away. One datapoint: I live in Rhode Island. Recently I attended a concert in Brooklyn. The obvious way to travel there was Amtrak to Penn Station and MTA (train or bus) to the final destination. However, I was warned that MTA service is unreliable. I decided to drive. Next time I probably won't go at all.

So, I haven't been to New York in a while, but I'm guessing that you were poorly informed. Usually when public transit networks start showing strain, it's during rush hours, when they're handling massive spikes in ridership. To give an example from Chicago: If you're trying to get on the train downtown at 6:00pm, you'll get on the next train, and probably get to sit in a seat. If you try to do it at 5:00pm, you stand…

The actual issue with New York subways is:

* planned work every weekend and most late weeknights which reroutes half the trains and is described in terms guaranteed to confuse visitors. A complete map of the changed routes would help massively; instead, you get a long list of textual descriptions such as "Brooklyn-bound F trains are running express on the E track between Court Sq and W 4th St and local on the D track to Stillwell Av" which scares and confuses tourists who barely understand downtown Manhattan geography, much less how it relates to the rest of the city.

* occasional unreliability at any time of the day, typically either due to signal failures in century-old analog wiring, or because of paramedics or cops shutting down an entire station to take care of a rowdy or injured passenger.

Locals have learned to adapt. They know what the cryptic planned work descriptions mean and in which situations next station alerts are lying. They have learned to understand the static-y conductor announcements on a loud train. They know that on some lines, if you must to be at your destination on time, you ought to leave 30 minutes early just in case this ride is the 1/20 when something happens.

Visitors don't know such things, and I can empathize with their apprehension.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#116
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it does not surprise me that compensation is higher for NYC transit workers wrt national average, it is still striking that the difference is so large. I imagine the avg income in NYC is not >55% more than the national average.

That's because the parent poster's numbers are heavily massaged, and include non-union, and executive compensation. Average salaries for people actually operating the trains are ~$22-30/hour.

I'm guessing the pension plan and healthcare inflate the total compensation figure quite a lot.

Basically these guys aren't getting their future screwed so they're an outlier. Same problem the Post Office has. When you aren't allowed to skimp on the perks and pass the buck to the government of the future you don't look very competitive.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#117
post #20
post #7

“The subway service and the bus service has become unreliable enough for people to stop using it. If people aren’t using it, there’s less money, and they have to keep raising fares without delivering better service.” I was a daily rider of the DC metro for 8 years. This is exactly what happened there. Reliability plummeted, then ridership, and all the while major fare increases.

If you haven't been back, I think you'd be surprised at the (weekday) reliability of the metro now. The metro is almost always terribly messed up on weekends (with single-tracking and line closings), but they make a damn good effort to get weekday commuters to work on time. I've been living in the DC area for the past two years and it seems like they have really been making the metro a priority. I have a transfer dur…

I second this. I don’t use Metro often, but my wife commutes by Metro almost every day. There was a period of a couple of years where she’d pretty routinely get home an hour or two late because of some huge fuckup with the trains, but recently it’s been very smooth.

I think this is connected to the constant weekend problems you mentioned. The trouble before was that they weren’t maintaining the system properly because they didn’t want to cause disruptions. They finally realized that maintenance isn’t actually optional and started doing what it takes to get it done. The system doesn’t have enough capacity to have sections out of service for maintenance without major disruptions, but at least now they happen at a time of their choosing.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Both things can be true I believe both are and will be. But to what degree? If it’s billions on bloat, then we need a cost cutter at the top (in addition to new funding).

I started my career working in the transportation sector, and that leaves me skeptical that it can be so simple. I've watched cost cutters at work in government transportation departments. Their MO seems to always be to cut the costs that are easy to cut so they can claim easy wins right away. Unfortunately, the costs that are easy to cut are typically things like skimping on maintenance. This leads to higher costs i…

A good example of this is the DC Metro. It was in a complete maintenance crisis a few years ago and has been playing an extremely expensive game of catchup to avoid killing any more passengers. Service quality and price have suffered while they try to rush all of the deferred maintenance.

The DC Metro also has the same problem of being a jobs program for inner city residents, so efficiency upgrades are fought tooth and nail by the union.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#119

> Drastically cut service or increase fares There's another option: disband the MTA Union, the primary driver of operations costs. They have blocked technology and safety upgrades for decades to keep 'those darn computers and robots from taking jobs from poor workers just trying to make a living'.

Paying conductors a living wage isn't nearly as expensive to the agency (and the state, and we the taxpayers and riders) as mismanaged and corruptly nepotistic multi-billion dollar contracts for construction.

This is wrong in many ways.

* Unionized workers make very good money in New York.

* Unions are a primary political driver behind those expensive contracts.

* There's more to unions than conductors. Construction and maintenance, for example.

* The unions routinely put up strong opposition to any meaningful expense or quality control. They also strongly oppose any modernization attempts that might threaten their jobs. They've opposed electronic signaling and control for decades. The worse the subways are, the better it is for them.

* Unions are politically untouchable. No matter what the consequences for the public, people are willing to leap to the defense of the noble workingman. Actually, the noble workingman who needs a "living wage" is riding the subways, not maintaining them. The poor and desperate are found among the five million people who ride the subway every day. Transportation is a public good. It shouldn't be beholden to a small group of highly paid laborers.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#120

> Drastically cut service or increase fares There's another option: disband the MTA Union, the primary driver of operations costs. They have blocked technology and safety upgrades for decades to keep 'those darn computers and robots from taking jobs from poor workers just trying to make a living'.

Paying conductors a living wage isn't nearly as expensive to the agency (and the state, and we the taxpayers and riders) as mismanaged and corruptly nepotistic multi-billion dollar contracts for construction.

That could go to another change: the procurement process, so that smaller companies can compete.
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