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How much does a cable box really cost? The industry would prefer you don't ask

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Re: How much does a cable box really cost? The industry would prefer you don't ask

#111

Post by 01100011 »

raverbashing wrote: post #50

Do you really wanna know how much it costs? Look at similar streaming hardware (think FireStick, Roku, etc) The hardware (heck, even the software) is the same or very similar for the most part. Smartphones made the hw price (and form factors) go down a lot. If your decoder is DTV or Cable there's an extra cost related to the receiver, but that has also getting cheaper as well. Long gone are the times of the first rec…

Not quite.

Tuners can be cheap or they can be expensive depending on the features you want. I don't think Broadcom's full-band capture tuner, which IIRC is basically a 2GHz ADC, is very cheap. It allows things like pre-tuning to adjacent channels which hastens channel changes. Security on set-tops is a big issue(as well as on OTT devices but STBs are crazy) and that may increase costs. Legacy interfaces like cable cards(no longer needed) increase costs and development time. Cable box SoCs(usually from Broadcom) are beasts and also not cheap. They support things like HDMI in and out, transcoding, multiple video streams(for Picture-in-Picture), etc. They are not in the same league as a Chromecast.

Don't forget about software. A lot of the stack is custom and needs teams of people working year after year to sort-of get it right(STB software is generally horrible). Each MSO(cable company) requests specific changes and customizations(beyond just branding).

Now that's not to say that you couldn't design an IPTV system which uses something like a Chromecast. This is often done and the hardware can be cheaper. I think it stresses out the network more vs, say, a broadcast design where you're dealing with a massive asymmetrical content delivery system which is just pushing the same bits to everyone. It's probably much cheaper to setup a cable headend for 250k+ subscribers than it is to make a IPTV system for the same number of people.

A TiVo box is basically equivalent to a modern set top box(give or take...DVR vs zapper, for instance). I would start with that to get an idea of what a cable box should cost.

Source: 10 or so years in the STB industry. I left because the industry is dying.

Re: How much does a cable box really cost? The industry would prefer you don't ask

#112

Post by cr0sh »

crispyambulance wrote: post #72
raverbashing wrote: post #50

Do you really wanna know how much it costs? Look at similar streaming hardware (think FireStick, Roku, etc) The hardware (heck, even the software) is the same or very similar for the most part. Smartphones made the hw price (and form factors) go down a lot. If your decoder is DTV or Cable there's an extra cost related to the receiver, but that has also getting cheaper as well. Long gone are the times of the first rec…

Yeah, the actual core of the device is going to be roughly something like a chromecast. Almost certainly no asics, so the cost is going to be dominated by commodity parts-- displays, audio-visual jacks and then there's the branded plastic case, graphics, labels. There's an iFixit teardown of the chromecast here: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Chromecast+2015+Teardown/501... Basically, 5 or 6 IC's and related trimmin…

> Are they roku-sized now, or just huge mostly empty boxes?

I haven't seen a new one in a while either, but the last time I used one (at a relative's house IIRC), it was the same-old, same-old:

A box about the size of a DVD player, a bit larger (smaller than a VCR, though), mostly empty inside. Usually if it's a DVR, there's a hard drive, and the board is mostly a computer, generally running some kind of embedded proprietary closed-source RTOS. Occasionally you'll see linux, android, or some flavor of Windows CE. Beyond that - yeah, empty air.

I know that some of the very simple cable boxes are about the size of a Roku, but I don't think any of them are like a Chromecast (that is, usb drive size).

Re: How much does a cable box really cost? The industry would prefer you don't ask

#113

Post by raverbashing »

01100011 wrote: post #111
raverbashing wrote: post #50

Do you really wanna know how much it costs? Look at similar streaming hardware (think FireStick, Roku, etc) The hardware (heck, even the software) is the same or very similar for the most part. Smartphones made the hw price (and form factors) go down a lot. If your decoder is DTV or Cable there's an extra cost related to the receiver, but that has also getting cheaper as well. Long gone are the times of the first rec…

Not quite. Tuners can be cheap or they can be expensive depending on the features you want. I don't think Broadcom's full-band capture tuner, which IIRC is basically a 2GHz ADC, is very cheap. It allows things like pre-tuning to adjacent channels which hastens channel changes. Security on set-tops is a big issue(as well as on OTT devices but STBs are crazy) and that may increase costs. Legacy interfaces like cable ca…

> Tuners can be cheap or they can be expensive depending on the features you want. I don't think Broadcom's full-band capture tuner, which IIRC is basically a 2GHz ADC, is very cheap.

True, but a basic ATSC/DVB/ISTB shouldn't be too expensive. Maybe cable ones are more expensive, but the tech is basically the same. Satellite is pricier.

> Cable box SoCs(usually from Broadcom) are beasts and also not cheap. They support things like HDMI in and out, transcoding, multiple video streams(for Picture-in-Picture), etc.

Yes, depends on the manufacturer, I've used/tested a couple of products from different manufacturers (including Intel's adventure on that area) but most stream boxes use the same hardware, chromecast is the exception, not the rule

"Not cheap" but IIRC $10/$20 for the SOC itself (but that was 10 years ago)

> STB software is generally horrible

YES. MPEG-TS decoding (especially metadata) usually goes "how sausages are made".

Re: How much does a cable box really cost? The industry would prefer you don't ask

#114

Post by cstejerean »

dgzl wrote: post #25
drblast wrote: post #5

I have the same reaction every time I read about any cable company, and that's, "WTF are you all still giving them your money for?!" They have a monopoly on a dying service you literally don't need at all, and most people hate having to deal with them. The pricing and contracts are antagonistic to customers. Is it just momentum at this point?

For the past year, I've been trying to convince my grandparents to ditch cable for internet TV, and the transition has been surprisingly difficult. After two attempts (I don't live near them), I am still not successful, however I did reduce the TV/phone/internet bundle from $250 to $200. Next time I see them, I'm coming prepared with the items that prevented me from succeeding before, and hopefully I'll be reducing t…

Get a mesh wifi solution like Google WiFi, and spread the other access points around. Much easier than the alternatives and you'll have fast internet throughout the whole house so you can stream video in any room.

Re: How much does a cable box really cost? The industry would prefer you don't ask

#115

Post by reaperducer »

mark-r wrote: post #93
dpeck wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cable tv without broadcast... does that combination exist anywhere?

When cable TV was new, that was its entire reason for existing. Not sure about the present landscape but I'm sure it happens somewhere.

Actually cable's origin was to bring broadcast television to areas with poor or no reception. Cable systems were often started by neighborhood groups and local small businesses, which is why "cable" is sometimes called "CATV" — Community Access Television.

Later, satellite-carried "Superstations" were added like WPIX, WTBS, WGN, etc...

Later still, pay television services like HBO and Cinemax were added.

Even later, we ended up with what we have today.

Re: How much does a cable box really cost? The industry would prefer you don't ask

#116

Post by brianwawok »

mywittyname wrote: post #82
ascagnel_ wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, cable companies are generally the only source of high-speed internet, and they sometimes charge a higher sticker price to provide internet-only service vs. bundling with TV service.

I get cable internet for $55/mo with no cable packages at all. It's certainly overpriced for what it is, but it's still much, much cheaper than a complete package, which is easily twice that figure.

Comcast won’t sell me internet past 20MB without a TV package I don’t have hooked up to TVs. Super awesome.

Re: How much does a cable box really cost? The industry would prefer you don't ask

#117

Post by gjvc »

gjvc wrote: post #59
rb808 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

powerline networking is your friend.

Yes it is and while not the fastest, it works surprisingly well. I tried a couple of units several years ago and it was a bust. Some guy locally was giving away two TP-link 1000 plugs and they worked first time and I'm now a believer. Give it a shot.

Just missed the edit window. https://www.tp-link.com/uk/download/TL-PA211_V1.html is the device

Re: How much does a cable box really cost? The industry would prefer you don't ask

#118

Post by gruez »

bunderbunder wrote: post #64
reaperducer wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you literally don't need at all Unless you live in a place without broadcast television, or little broadcast television, and with little to no internet service. So pretty much 20% of the United States. The nation is much larger than the east and west coasts.

You still literally don't need it. Which isn't to say that most people don't want it really really bad , but still, it's different, and words matter. Moreover, unless you're an extreme binge watcher, I'm guessing you could still consume more than you can eat of video entertainment for less money than the cable companies charge by buying DVDs. Let alone Netflix's DVD service.

>I'm guessing you could still consume more than you can eat of video entertainment for less money than the cable companies charge by buying DVDs.

how? let's say you're on some expensive cable plan, $120/mo and DVDs cost $15. that works out to 8 movies a month, which might cut it if you only watch a couple of hours of TV on the weekends, but is nowhere enough if you watch daily.

Re: How much does a cable box really cost? The industry would prefer you don't ask

#119

Post by Unklejoe »

crispyambulance wrote: post #72
raverbashing wrote: post #50

Do you really wanna know how much it costs? Look at similar streaming hardware (think FireStick, Roku, etc) The hardware (heck, even the software) is the same or very similar for the most part. Smartphones made the hw price (and form factors) go down a lot. If your decoder is DTV or Cable there's an extra cost related to the receiver, but that has also getting cheaper as well. Long gone are the times of the first rec…

Yeah, the actual core of the device is going to be roughly something like a chromecast. Almost certainly no asics, so the cost is going to be dominated by commodity parts-- displays, audio-visual jacks and then there's the branded plastic case, graphics, labels. There's an iFixit teardown of the chromecast here: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Chromecast+2015+Teardown/501... Basically, 5 or 6 IC's and related trimmin…

For what it’s worth, my old cable box actually had an FPGA in it.

Re: How much does a cable box really cost? The industry would prefer you don't ask

#120

Post by cimmanom »

reaperducer wrote: post #19
drblast wrote: post #5

I have the same reaction every time I read about any cable company, and that's, "WTF are you all still giving them your money for?!" They have a monopoly on a dying service you literally don't need at all, and most people hate having to deal with them. The pricing and contracts are antagonistic to customers. Is it just momentum at this point?

you literally don't need at all Unless you live in a place without broadcast television, or little broadcast television, and with little to no internet service. So pretty much 20% of the United States. The nation is much larger than the east and west coasts.

No, food is something you need. A cellphone plan is something you need to function in modern society without an enormous handicap. Television is not something you need.
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