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United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

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Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#111

Post by mynameisvlad »

belltaco wrote: post #46
mynameisvlad wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically, the equivalent is telling them to "keep the fries" since airlines can then re-sell your ticket or offer it to standby customers.

Isn't it pretty late to re-sell the ticket if you don't show up? It helps them with overbooking, standby customers, fuel costs and increased comfort to other passengers though.

In most cases, they technically already resold your ticket due to overbooking; it makes their lives easier since they don't have to boot someone from the flight, you voluntarily booted yourself. In fact, not only did you boot yourself, you forefeited however much the segment cost you, and any future segments on the ticket. That's why it's so absolutely preposterous that United is threatening to do this. They likely are making money off each person who skips segments, they just don't like it happening because it messes up their ticketing and flight operations models if this starts happening widespread.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#112

Post by cft »

otterley wrote: post #106
otterley wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically yes, but the injury is de minimis so McDonald's isn't likely to demand recompense in this situation.

Correcting myself here: this particular example isn’t fraudulent. You asked for something that was being offered, you paid the asking price, and you got it. They’d sell it to you whether you intend to eat the fries or not. They don’t care. So there’s no misrepresentation and no reliance. Those elements aren’t met, so no fraud occurs. Services can be different than goods in this regard. In the airline example, the sel…

I am sorry but I am seeing an exact analogy, other than your statement that services are somehow different from purchases. I am also depriving McDonald's from the added profit of selling me a coke and a burger separately for more than a meal, and I do have the premeditated true intent of not eating the fries, that I reveal by tossing them repeatedly every time I order a meal. Maybe it's harder to prove that I toss the fries every time, but according to your logic McDonald's in theory can collect the difference and threaten my credit too.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#113

Post by cft »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #88
otterley wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically yes, but the injury is de minimis so McDonald's isn't likely to demand recompense in this situation.

Not at all, eating is not part of the contract, only receipt. If you buy a meal at McDonald's and throw all of it in the trash, that's not fraud. It's yours to do with how you please.

What if I repeatedly buy non-stop tickets and don't show up? I have done it a lot. According to you, I breached my promise to fly to the final destination?

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#114

Post by cft »

lordlimecat wrote: post #110
johnm1019 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree it's crystal clear. How does buying something indicate your intent, wants, or wishes? If I buy a can of spray-paint, the store has no idea if I am using it to paint my child's bicycle, tag graffiti, use it as a weapon and hit someone on the head, or as part of a wonderful "Rube Goldberg" device which at the end an implement hits the sprayhead which sprays through a bright white light as part of…

>How does buying something indicate your intent, wants, or wishes? Because when you buy a united ticket you agree to a contract of carriage that specifically says you will use the ticket in its entirety.

Note that this contract is not a law: i would be surprised if it stood in court. According to it, if I feel sick and terminate my flight at the stopover, of if I learn of a business emergency and I have to go back, I am still in breach of this ridiculous contract?

And what makes it most ridiculous is this: "Any practice that United believes, in its sole discretion, is exploitative, abusive or that manipulates/bypasses/overrides United’s fare and ticket rules."

Can they ban me from United- yes. Can they try to collect money and threaten me with a credit dent? They can, until they ran into a lawyer or into a motivated person with time and resources on their hands.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#115

Post by otterley »

cft wrote: post #112
otterley wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correcting myself here: this particular example isn’t fraudulent. You asked for something that was being offered, you paid the asking price, and you got it. They’d sell it to you whether you intend to eat the fries or not. They don’t care. So there’s no misrepresentation and no reliance. Those elements aren’t met, so no fraud occurs. Services can be different than goods in this regard. In the airline example, the sel…

I am sorry but I am seeing an exact analogy, other than your statement that services are somehow different from purchases. I am also depriving McDonald's from the added profit of selling me a coke and a burger separately for more than a meal, and I do have the premeditated true intent of not eating the fries, that I reveal by tossing them repeatedly every time I order a meal. Maybe it's harder to prove that I toss th…

In this hypothetical, McDonald’s does not care what you do with the fries they sold you. Even if you told them that you were just going to throw them in the garbage, they’d still sell you the combo at the cheaper price.

United, however, does care how you use the ticket they issue. How can you tell? Because they would not have sold you the ticket at the discounted price had you told them your true intent (to fly to a city other than your ticketed destination). They offered you a particular fare because they relied on what you claimed. That’s the difference.

The key to analyzing these questions is, what would the other person have done had they known your true intent? If they’d have done something different, then reliance can be shown and that element can be satisfied.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#116

Post by otterley »

lovich wrote: post #87
kazinator wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's see how far can we take this ridiculous bullshit. If some business discriminates against blacks, is it fraud to intentionally misrepresent oneself as white?

It might actually be? That's a curious question. In reality I doubt any business would bring it up as their discrimination would get them in much bigger trouble with the law, but the law does allow for multiple parties to be incorrect. Are there any lawyers here who know if there is case law showing someone getting prosecuted for fraud when the fraud in question was to avoid already illegal activity?

The answer is what you’d expect it to be if you simply applied common sense, namely, that you can’t prevail on a fraud theory if you’re committing unlawful discrimination and the false representation being relied upon can’t lawfully be relied upon in a decisionmaking process.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#117

Post by cft »

cft wrote: post #112
otterley wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correcting myself here: this particular example isn’t fraudulent. You asked for something that was being offered, you paid the asking price, and you got it. They’d sell it to you whether you intend to eat the fries or not. They don’t care. So there’s no misrepresentation and no reliance. Those elements aren’t met, so no fraud occurs. Services can be different than goods in this regard. In the airline example, the sel…

I am sorry but I am seeing an exact analogy, other than your statement that services are somehow different from purchases. I am also depriving McDonald's from the added profit of selling me a coke and a burger separately for more than a meal, and I do have the premeditated true intent of not eating the fries, that I reveal by tossing them repeatedly every time I order a meal. Maybe it's harder to prove that I toss th…

Again, nested depth limit but: I could have told the cashier "I only want a coke and a burger please" revealing my true intent. In that case, the cashier would have sold me what I wanted, for more money. Since I concealed my true intent from the cashier and said "I want a combo meal please" I deprived McDonalds of this profit.

Now if you tell me that I violated some written United contract, that I had to explicitly agree to when purchasing a multi-leg ticket, that's another matter. But I will still argue that that contract is not enforceable. And to my knowledge, they do not have a clearly visible contract with an opt in in this specific case.

My point is that the burden is on the airline to prevent such loopholes by revisiting their pricing schemes, rather than attempting to bully its passengers (also for Streisand effect reasons).

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#118

Post by otterley »

cft wrote: post #117
cft wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sorry but I am seeing an exact analogy, other than your statement that services are somehow different from purchases. I am also depriving McDonald's from the added profit of selling me a coke and a burger separately for more than a meal, and I do have the premeditated true intent of not eating the fries, that I reveal by tossing them repeatedly every time I order a meal. Maybe it's harder to prove that I toss th…

Again, nested depth limit but: I could have told the cashier "I only want a coke and a burger please" revealing my true intent. In that case, the cashier would have sold me what I wanted, for more money. Since I concealed my true intent from the cashier and said "I want a combo meal please" I deprived McDonalds of this profit. Now if you tell me that I violated some written United contract, that I had to explicitly a…

I’m sorry to say that you’d lose.

Law school is expensive, but I’d recommend attending if you’d like to better understand beyond what I’ve already said here.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#119

Post by otterley »

cft wrote: post #114
lordlimecat wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How does buying something indicate your intent, wants, or wishes? Because when you buy a united ticket you agree to a contract of carriage that specifically says you will use the ticket in its entirety.

Note that this contract is not a law: i would be surprised if it stood in court. According to it, if I feel sick and terminate my flight at the stopover, of if I learn of a business emergency and I have to go back, I am still in breach of this ridiculous contract? And what makes it most ridiculous is this: "Any practice that United believes, in its sole discretion , is exploitative, abusive or that manipulates/bypass…

Impossibility is a defense to a breach of contract. And let’s not be silly; United’s not going to go after you for unintentional breach due to illness. Come on, use some common sense.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#120

Post by otterley »

cft wrote: post #113
InclinedPlane wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all, eating is not part of the contract, only receipt. If you buy a meal at McDonald's and throw all of it in the trash, that's not fraud. It's yours to do with how you please.

What if I repeatedly buy non-stop tickets and don't show up? I have done it a lot. According to you, I breached my promise to fly to the final destination?

The question is, would United sell you a ticket knowing you have no actual intent to fly? If they answer is yes, there’s no problem. If the answer is no, then there’s a problem.
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