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Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

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Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#111

Post by RobertRoberts »

sudosteph wrote: post #99

I feel like observance of the Sabbath is actually one place where Christianity diverges[1] pretty clearly from many stricter Jewish traditions. Jesus pretty much straight up tells his disciples that Sabbath is for people to relax and that the weird laws around it were meaningless. But in general I'd say the author's sentiment is definitely on target. Guaranteed time off makes sense from many perspectives, morally and…

>...and that the weird laws around it were meaningless.

It's important to distinguish Rabbinical law from biblical laws in this case. There are very few biblical laws about how to keep the sabbath.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#112

Post by bdcravens »

gavman wrote: post #35

As an Orthodox Jew who observes the Sabbath every week, while sometimes finishing up work and preparations beforehand can be stressful at times, there's no feeling like turning off all phones/laptops/etc Friday evening and leaving it all behind. There's a supreme serenity that comes with the knowledge of "I can't do anything about it, so there's no point in worrying". As soon as Sabbath starts I'm totally focused on…

My wife is Messianic Jewish. I presume they are more liberal in their approach than most Jewish sects, but as they all seem to use their phones during Sabbath (even posting videos from services to Facebook)

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#113

Post by wyldfire »

mac01021 wrote: post #102
gavman wrote: post #35

As an Orthodox Jew who observes the Sabbath every week, while sometimes finishing up work and preparations beforehand can be stressful at times, there's no feeling like turning off all phones/laptops/etc Friday evening and leaving it all behind. There's a supreme serenity that comes with the knowledge of "I can't do anything about it, so there's no point in worrying". As soon as Sabbath starts I'm totally focused on…

Since I'm mostly ignorant of such practices, what _can_ one do on the sabbath? I assume it's not the case that your entire day is consumed by worship/ceremony/Judaism? Do you spend any time pursuing hobbies? Are there gray areas, where it is open to interpretation whether or not an activity constitutes work? Perhaps you unplug completely and do no computing or telecommunication for the entire sabbath, but is that uni…

Gentile here -- what's not available on the sabbath is probably easier to define. IIRC it mostly consists of things considered to be 'work', but depending on your orthodoxy it is usually the most "active" things that are barred. e.g. cooking w/oven barred, but preparing something to eat is not necessarily barred. Activating a light switch barred, but passively enjoying the light emitted (if it were already on) is not.

> Are there gray areas, where it is open to interpretation whether or not an activity constitutes work?

Yes, but humorously (IMO) there are those who go to great lengths to create devices or methods that dodge the rules.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#114

Post by RobertRoberts »

macintux wrote: post #29

I think forcing people to be prepared for a day each week without any services (grocery, gas stations) would lead to better emergency preparedness in general. And better planning. (I still remember when people needed to withdraw cash during bank hours and thus had to plan ahead.) I'd also be curious what the Sabbath would be. Sundown Friday to sundown Saturday? Saturday only? I believe the Christian conflation of chu…

That is an interesting technical point.

As an aside, we observe a day of fasting (atonement) every year, so my kids all know what it's like to be really hungry, but they also aren't afraid of it either. There's real life skills and strength gained from this.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#115

Post by themodelplumber »

sudosteph wrote: post #99

I feel like observance of the Sabbath is actually one place where Christianity diverges[1] pretty clearly from many stricter Jewish traditions. Jesus pretty much straight up tells his disciples that Sabbath is for people to relax and that the weird laws around it were meaningless. But in general I'd say the author's sentiment is definitely on target. Guaranteed time off makes sense from many perspectives, morally and…

I'm LDS, and though I can feel the downvotes coming, I also feel like I can share some relevant personal experience here. We consider ourselves Christians and do not work on the sabbath, or I should clarify, are _encouraged_ not to (at an individual level all Mormons observe their religion differently, so some will work on the sabbath, or feel they have to in order to fulfill a sort of higher law of providing for their family, or whatever).

I guess I'd also add that in the general Christian view, the specific, older-testament-era laws around the sabbath had a meaning, but they were really pointers to higher laws and concepts rather than, or possibly in addition to, being materially meaningful standalone practices. And as you rightfully point out, those "little laws and practices" were also subject to a higher law. I remember when I lived in Japan, I was working outside as very hungry young missionary one day and a kind old woman grabbed some fruit and a bag of chips off of her family altar and gave them to me, demanding that I eat. This had similar significance to me and is an experience that's very close to my heart.

IMO sabbath observance a great practice. There are few things like the feeling of a day that is uninterrupted by work concerns. And going beyond the limitation to what we _don't do_ on that day, it's also a day that's set aside for meditation, big-picture thinking about life, spirituality, and connection with the universal. In the past I let it slide a lot more than I do now, but in the past I was also a much less-healthy workaholic.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#116

Post by RobertRoberts »

aklemm wrote: post #57

If this doesn't work out, can we at least keep one day a year? Please don't shop on Thanksgiving!

It actually used to be against the law. The King of England would put people in jail (or bring them to court at least) if they were caught working on a day of thanksgiving. This was 1600s of course...

There's a funny story about a guy in court being taken to task, but he said he didn't work, but his son did, and shenanigans ensued. Evidently it was a sign of protest against the king to work on thanksgiving days. Mainly because the king would declare them for his own purposes...

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#117

Post by spiritcat »

Itaxpica wrote: post #107
spiritcat wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well ya the prohibition is about creating fire, why wouldn't you step on the elevator if it's just going to be going up and down anyway?

This is a common misconception, but the prohibition against using electronics on Shabbat has nothing to do with fire; it has to do with completing a circuit since "completing a construction" is one of the 39 specifically banned activities

ooh

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#118

Post by gavman »

mac01021 wrote: post #102
gavman wrote: post #35

As an Orthodox Jew who observes the Sabbath every week, while sometimes finishing up work and preparations beforehand can be stressful at times, there's no feeling like turning off all phones/laptops/etc Friday evening and leaving it all behind. There's a supreme serenity that comes with the knowledge of "I can't do anything about it, so there's no point in worrying". As soon as Sabbath starts I'm totally focused on…

Since I'm mostly ignorant of such practices, what _can_ one do on the sabbath? I assume it's not the case that your entire day is consumed by worship/ceremony/Judaism? Do you spend any time pursuing hobbies? Are there gray areas, where it is open to interpretation whether or not an activity constitutes work? Perhaps you unplug completely and do no computing or telecommunication for the entire sabbath, but is that uni…

For those who are more traditional, the norm is to not use any electricity, from lights to microwaves to cellphones.

Part of the time is spent with worship (usually about ~45 mins Friday evening, ~2 hours Saturday morning, and ~15 minutes Saturday evening). It is traditional to have a large meal with family/friends for dinner Friday night and Saturday lunch, and often these meals can go on for 3-4 hours (as a side note, meals without phones with everyone fully engaged in the conversation are great, my wife and I instituted a no phones at meals initiative outside of Sabbath as well).

As for Saturday afternoon, I personally get a lot of reading done and when it's nice I'll go for walks with family/friends or hang out with friends indoors. Lots of my friends get together for board game groups as well. Because those who observe Sabbath don't drive, everyone in the community lives within walking distance of the synagogue and therefore walking distance of each other as well.

This was especially great in middle/high school -- most of my closest friends are still my friends from my neighborhood growing up. We spent so many hours on Sabbath together talking and hanging out without the distractions of phones or movies or video games and grew so close over that time spent together.

Edit to clarify the electricity comment: you can leave stuff such as lights on or use a timer set beforehand, so you're not stuck in the literal dark for a lot of the time :p

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#119

Post by RobertRoberts »

fenwick67 wrote: post #9

"The Sabbath’s radicalism should be no surprise given the fact that it originated among a community of former slaves" Just a reminder to readers, there is no historical evidence for the mass jewish enslavement by egyptians as described in the torah.

I won't argue the historical point, but of the 10 commandments, only the 4th (about the sabbath) was altered the second time it was written, and included a specific note to remember they were slaves as a part of the reason to rest. (Deuteronomy 5:15) But also to give their own servants rest, something the Orthodox Jews seem to have forgotten or ignore by hiring servants to do work for them on the sabbath.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#120

Post by natalyarostova »

lukeschlather wrote: post #40
natalyarostova wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>where it's in everyone's immediate individual interest to work just a little bit longer, but the end result is that everyone has to work more for the same reward If everyone is working more, more value is being created in total. So it's not zero-sum. You might then say "Yes, sure, but is working more hours to buy more things really better than a culture where we work less and spend more time eating dinner with our f…

> If everyone is working more, more value is being created in total. That's often false. It's very easy to create negative value, and it becomes easier the less you rest. It's also hard to measure when additional work starts creating negative value, so you can easily end up in a downward spiral of productivity as people compete for not just illusory but counterproductive gains.

Hmm, I was going to disagree with you, but as I reflect on my time in Tokyo I have to admit you're right.
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