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Why Is College in America So Expensive?

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Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#111

Post by fzeroracer »

Alupis wrote: post #109
fzeroracer wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you're talking to someone that went through it all the same. Just because it's worked out for you doesn't make your experience the norm for all students. If you're expecting all students to spend 15+ years working just to get through their degree then I would argue that system is just as fucked up as the one we currently have. The solution is to make college free for students and wipe away student loan debt. You'…

Why do we need a solution "right now"? Why can't we take the time to get it right - instead of applying just another band-aid that will need further fixing a few years down the road. Enough band-aids... Not everyone needs to attend University and get a shiny degree - we need to stop that narrative while we're at it. There's plenty of trades that pay well and are in high demand. There's nothing wrong with being a blue…

Ah, there it is. 'Largely frivolous degree programs'. Not everyone can (or should!) be in STEM, the point of higher education is that having an educated populace with a wide variety of topics is good for the overall health of your country. Regardless if it's art history or psychology, a healthy nation needs a balance of educated individuals.

And to address your first posit: You would be objectively wrong. It is a remarkably ignorant America-centric viewpoint considering many other nations and countries do in fact have free college for their individuals. It does not devalue the experience at all. Why is it that we can't learn through what other nations have done?

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#112

Post by dragonwriter »

phil248 wrote: post #20
Domenic_S wrote: post #3

I didn't see this discussed in the article, but IMO the main driver is the availability of student loans. When the government guarantees loans, you can lend whatever you want! The price of a TRIPLE occupancy dorm + 7 day meal access is $14,813.29/YEAR at UC Davis. The "meals", if they haven't changed in the last decade, are Sodexo garbage. And don't forget a "year" doesn't count the summer, or winter break.

Even if you apply 50% of that cost towards food, that's still around $830/mo rent for a shared room in Davis, California. You could find better deals in nice parts of San Francisco or Manhattan.

> You could find better deals in nice parts of San Francisco or Manhattan.

It's about the same price as a median studio in SF,($2490 vs. $2461), but the SF studio is about the same size without the kind of shared kitchen, restroom, and living spaces outside the unit that are included, and without the convenience to the core campus. You can save rent by living off campis instead of on campus—in fact, you'll be forced to other than your first year by the woefully inadequate supply of on campus housing. On campus housing is a guaranteed-but-premium option provided for first year freshman and transfers, and which may be available to other students subject to availability, not a baseline requirement.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#113

Post by dragonwriter »

jonknee wrote: post #66
prolikewh0a wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many roommates for $1k? $1k within 20 miles of Seattle isn't enough to live alone, and I'm guessing it's much worse in SF.

It's a triple occupancy dorm. You could definitely do that in Seattle/SF/NYC considering it's a single room with no kitchen or bathroom shared by 3 people (other than the fact that I think it would be illegal to rent out).

It's about what you'd pay for a studio in SF of similar size with the kitchen and bathroom taking up some of that space.

Of course, the commute to UC Davis campus would be longer from SF.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#114

Post by rossjudson »

frebord wrote: post #91
Domenic_S wrote: post #3

I didn't see this discussed in the article, but IMO the main driver is the availability of student loans. When the government guarantees loans, you can lend whatever you want! The price of a TRIPLE occupancy dorm + 7 day meal access is $14,813.29/YEAR at UC Davis. The "meals", if they haven't changed in the last decade, are Sodexo garbage. And don't forget a "year" doesn't count the summer, or winter break.

> Ultimately, college is expensive in the U.S. for the same reason MRIs are expensive: There is no central mechanism to control price increases. “Universities extract money from students because they can,” says Schleicher at the OECD. “It’s the inevitable outcome of an unregulated fee structure.” Why do people always reach for central control, when we have the ultimate mechanism of price control as a core part of our…

Sure you can. Limit the federal education loan guarantee to 15k per year.

Presto. Watch education prices drop like a rock, when lenders raise rates to accommodate future earnings potential, instead of counting on federal guarantees.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#115

Post by vkou »

Alupis wrote: post #76
vkou wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, University is expensive! But - a large portion of the numbers you see thrown around include living expenses! The same living expenses a student would incur if they were not attending University. Nearly all American universities require their students to live in dorms for the first X years of their undergrad. You can be exempted from this requirement if you are dirt-poor, or are married. [1] If you are a middle…

This isn't true for all Universities - and for those where it's still an outdated requirement, we should push to change this. Student housing is a rip-off.

What's happening is the converse - more and more universities are instituting this requirement. After all, the fancy dorms they built aren't going to pay for themselves, if they don't get a captive tenant base.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#116

Post by noetic_techy »

fzeroracer wrote: post #102
frebord wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ultimately, college is expensive in the U.S. for the same reason MRIs are expensive: There is no central mechanism to control price increases. “Universities extract money from students because they can,” says Schleicher at the OECD. “It’s the inevitable outcome of an unregulated fee structure.” Why do people always reach for central control, when we have the ultimate mechanism of price control as a core part of our…

The free market does not work in all situations. There's a reason why our healthcare is an absolute disaster compared to any other first world country, why our college is far more expensive, why our drugs cost more etc And it ain't because of cost control. Every time we loosen the reins a bit and let the 'free market' take the wheels, we see things get a lot worse for Americans as a whole. Especially when you have gi…

Except for Singapore:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/02/upshot/what-makes-singapo...

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#117

Post by fzeroracer »

noetic_techy wrote: post #116
fzeroracer wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The free market does not work in all situations. There's a reason why our healthcare is an absolute disaster compared to any other first world country, why our college is far more expensive, why our drugs cost more etc And it ain't because of cost control. Every time we loosen the reins a bit and let the 'free market' take the wheels, we see things get a lot worse for Americans as a whole. Especially when you have gi…

Except for Singapore: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/02/upshot/what-makes-singapo...

If you read the article, Singapore is far from a 'free market' and easily has more government oversight than here in America.

They actually have public and private options competing for benefits, regulating salaries and hospitals and more. If you were to argue for a public option to health insurance or more regulations against hospitals, you'd be called a crazy socialist here.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#118

Post by dragonwriter »

rossjudson wrote: post #114
frebord wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ultimately, college is expensive in the U.S. for the same reason MRIs are expensive: There is no central mechanism to control price increases. “Universities extract money from students because they can,” says Schleicher at the OECD. “It’s the inevitable outcome of an unregulated fee structure.” Why do people always reach for central control, when we have the ultimate mechanism of price control as a core part of our…

Sure you can. Limit the federal education loan guarantee to 15k per year. Presto. Watch education prices drop like a rock, when lenders raise rates to accommodate future earnings potential, instead of counting on federal guarantees.

> Limit the federal education loan guarantee to 15k per year.

> Presto. Watch education prices drop like a rock

Why would raising the limit have that effect?

The limit for federally guaranteed loans (which are also, for nearly a decade, exclusively federal direct loans) is already $57,500 total for undergraduate education, and the maximim per year limit (it is lower for dependent students) is $9,500 for first-year students, $10,500 for second-year students, and $12,500 per year thereafter.

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/types/loans/subsidized-unsubsid...

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#119

Post by bhupy »

fzeroracer wrote: post #107
bhupy wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Healthcare in America is one of the least free markets in the country. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/31/17629526/m...

I don't see a statistic or actual citation there other than an issue with potentially out of date laws. How are you quantifying American Healthcare as being one of the least free markets? And how does it compare to other countries? I don't see anyone ever actually quantify how 'free' a market is; people only ever argue that if a market is not working therefore it's not free enough, which means we must make it free. A…

Sure - in America, healthcare is far from a free market because:

1) We don’t pay our own healthcare bills, we pay for our healthcare through insurance. As a result, there isn’t a pricing system in place, much like there is for other critical goods and services with price-inelastic demand like food and housing. This is caused by regulations that require employers to provide health insurance for their employees, and most recently the mandate that requires individuals to purchase insurance. We’ve essentially forced a world in which insurance is the only way one can pay for healthcare.

2) Our healthcare supply is artificially limited, which forces higher up prices. The MRI “certificate of need” is one such example, there are countless others. Medical licensure, in general, drives up the price to see just a primary care physician. In the US, just becoming a basic physician that prescribes antibiotics takes at least 8 years of expensive schooling. As a result, doctors in America earn more than their counterparts in every other country (adjusted for PPP)[1].

There are a couple solutions that the market can bring about. One of them is to get rid of the employer mandate. The fact that I have to worry about losing my insurance if I get fired or leave my job is totally bonkers. I don’t have to worry about that at all with my car insurance, it’s a cheap monthly premium that adds on to my cost of living, just like my monthly food expenses or my shelter expenses (read: rent). The reason why non-employer provided healthcare is more expensive is that the pool of people buying that type of insurance is much smaller than the pool of people that are happily receiving their employer-provided health insurance. If every single one of these employees participated in the same insurance market as those that are either unemployed or self-employed, premiums can come down.

The other solution is cut out insurance for most healthcare. We don’t use car insurance to pay for oil changes and servicing, we only use it to pay for catastrophic accidents. Absent the regulations we have today, the market might look the same for healthcare: you pay out of pocket for basic healthcare like going to the doctor when you’re sick or other preventative care (sort of like an oil change for your body). Insurance might kick in when you get cancer or heart disease. I come from India, where it costs about Rs. 500 out of pocket to see a good doctor that has an MBBS. This is the price of a movie ticket, in India. The concept of using insurance to pay for such care is unheard of. In America, paying for a general checkup, without insurance, can cost $300 out of pocket - absolutely absurd.

Singapore is a great example of a country that has a largely market driven healthcare system. Unless you’re poor, you pay out of pocket for all healthcare, in a private market. The government steps in and pays for healthcare for poor people, and for catastrophic care (think: universal high deductible healthcare plans).

[1] https://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/how-much-do-do...

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#120

Post by catdog »

swaggyBoatswain wrote: post #49

I remember when I graduated state tuition, I had a full ride scholarship through state tuition. By the time I graduated my tuition funding got cut in half due to lack of government funding. I worked 3 jobs and only had to pay for living expenses / textbooks. I checked recently my local University (the biggest one in the country, top 50 in many majors) charges $1000 per 3 semester hours(1 course). If you were to trans…

> Tuition is free (I believe?)

There was a brief period where it was not free everywhere (but still very low for US standards) but this legislation has been largely rolled back so it should be basically free. You only have to pay a small (often very small) fee per semester (varies a lot mostly because it often includes a mandatory public transport ticket which can be a bit expensive in some cities but still a lot cheaper than buying it yourself). You also need health insurance which is usually less than 100€ / month for students inside the state mandated system so you want this anyway i think. :)

> education is fantastic at the Fachhochschule (university of applied sciences)

In general a Fachhochschule is a less theoretical approach to higher education. Courses are a bit more school like compared to a university and the barrier to entry is also a bit lower (don't know if this is relevant to foreigners though). There used to be a huge distinction to normal universities as they originally did no research and degrees were not considered equal to a university degree. But a lot changed in recent years, now you can even apply to a university master's program with an FH degree and it's often possible to start a research career at an FH.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fachhochschule

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