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Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

theguardian.com

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Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#111

Post by vlovich123 »

frio wrote: post #98
m3at wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not convinced that centralization in its current iteration (cloud operators controlling huge infrastructures) is the best long run You might be interested in checking the InterPlanetary File System [1] which attempt to tackle this among other issue. I can't find it now but I remember the doc mentioning the need for a future space network to be decentralized, so there is that too. [1] https://ipfs.io/#why

From a conference I attended years ago, the key motivator is that request/response networking is pretty much already broken when we get to the moon; once Mars comes into the picture, it'll be even more so. When each TCP packet requires an ACK, and an ACK takes minutes to arrive... things break down a bit. So, the idea behind IPFS and others (SSB comes to mind, except, yacht-themed) is that it's largely a collection o…

Each TCP packet does not require an ack, at least not as a "receive TCP packet send out ACK". They're returned collectively as a bitset for the last N packets instead based on your transmission window (which TCP stacks already tune based on your RTT). Can't see how you'd get rid of that if you're looking for reliable real-time transport medium.

Additionally you can layer in forward error-correction above TCP to reduce packet loss due to the physical medium.

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#112

Post by wolco »

troquerre wrote: post #83
cityzen wrote: post #55

I think the web is still so new that people will really struggle to understand a decentralized web. Even 20 years on and .com still reigns supreme as the best TLD around. I'm in tech and I'm interested in a decentralized web but I also feel that throwing the baby out with the bathwater isn't a great idea. The article says, "The decentralised web, or DWeb, could be a chance to take control of our data back from the bi…

.com still reigns supreme but the icann only recently started letting people register new TLDs, and even then only 500 a year are registered. Handshake is helping to solve this by decentralizing DNS and letting anyone register new TLDs, so in the future .com may be way less popular than it is today. Disclosure: I founded Namebase.io which is a registrar for Handshake

When you use a .com you expect the domain to just work.

When you pick a random tld like .io for example you are not getting the reliability of a .com. .io had a few big issues last year (1/5 of dns queries were failing, ex-google employee bought ns-a1.io and was able to take over all .ios).

As more tlds come from good and bad faith actors people will flock to .com as a known respected entity. Limiting to .com, .org, .net and country codes and slowly introducing new tlds made more sense and gave time to estiblish trust / create brand awareness. 500 a year creates noise and forces distrust of any unusual or new tld.

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#113

Post by kickscondor »

zmw wrote: post #106
kickscondor wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So - there is no server-executed code - it all runs in the browser and the folder can only access itself anyway, which can't happen unless you have the private key. Access control in Beaker is through that private key - you need it in order to edit the 'dat' (name for a synced folder). So, no, there aren't a lot of complex permissions available - but you can also separate an app into several dats and use a master one…

Umm, having everyone’s data as a flat directory as opposed to an aggregated database sounds terribly inefficient... You need to somehow build a distributed, decentralized database on top of that flat structure, right? Otherwise your Twitter is just a microblog publishing tool plus a direct crawl RSS reader... Maybe Twitter is too specialized an example. What about any kind of search? You do need an index, and someone…

No, no - I understand on several fronts: first, there is just so much technology these days, it's tough to find anything that isn't just a fleeting thing; also, you're absolutely right that you can't just solve everything with a distributed filesystem.

I also am not sure what yourself (or newnewpdro) are looking for in the web or what appeals to you - for me, Google simply doesn't work for me - sure for technical issues it does, but it is basically Stack Overflow search in that department. If I'm looking for personal blogs, I can't just type "personal blog" into Google and find anything worthwhile - it's all clickbait of a fashion. The best way I've found of finding blogs is either to look through Pinboard tags or to click around on other blogs until I eventually get somewhere. It's horribly inefficient - but it's rewarding when I get there. I'm making a personally-edited blog directory to try to aid discovery - and yeah I actually think there's a lot we can do if we all did more grassroots search and directories. Anyway, that's my perspective - wondering what you're looking for in this thread. Have enjoyed your other questions above (below?)

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#114

Post by kickscondor »

tomcam wrote: post #104
kickscondor wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, so in my case, I wrote a blogging thing that runs in Beaker. I can run it from any of my machines and it has no server. This is great because it is insanely portable - I can setup the software on a new machine by just going to the URL. It is just "software as a service" but there is no server. It's somewhat similar to TiddlyWiki but Beaker adds automatic synchronization. (I still manage the JS code itself in gi…

If you visit kickscondor.com be sure to turn down volume first. You may find out as I did that if you visit at night its bleeps and bloops can wake up a partner :O

Thankyou for saying something tomcam - I've turned down the volume on the sample - please apologize to your person in bed. I might also consider closing down in the evenings.

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#116

Post by kingnight »

kickscondor wrote: post #70
kingnight wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For blogging use case, I have a few questions: 1. A (current?) limitation I've noticed with Beaker is that you can only edit a site implementation (for a specific address) on a single machine. What would you do if you had multiple computers / locations that would want to make updates (JS or User Content) 2. What about errors. Don't they persist in the address's history? What if there's something undesirable that got…

Yeah, cool - thank you for the questions, kingnight. 1. So this answer is a bit convoluted because I am still learning, wish I could keep it short. So my setup might be a bit 'naughty' because I'm currently saving the 'key' in my JS in a seperate dat. Right now I have one dat that acts as the 'admin' and one that is the actual blog - but I am going to move to hyperdb (the new solution for multi-writer support.) There…

Thanks much for the replies. I’m very interested in this and am wrapping my head around how it works and these differences so it’s great to hear perspectives from people using it.

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#117

Post by bronson »

pankajdoharey wrote: post #108
GW150914 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quantum entanglement seems poised to provide real-time interstellar communication. That makes for good science fiction, because Quantum Mechanics is so poorly understood by most people, but it’s in no way possible or implied by the theory. Any entangled channel of communication would appear to be random noise without a Classical channel of communication, which effectively limits entanglement to light speed. The first…

I think the best way forward would be Satellite based Internet where people can tune their dish antennas to the sky and get Internet. That would be Interruption free and decentralised. I have very low faith on Bitcoin mining operations to be repurposed for decentralised Internet, though in theory they have the compute nodes no body is free from the Internet service providers. A decentralised network based on existing…

Satellites are decentralized?

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#118

Post by mrep »

dcposch wrote: post #44
tannhaeuser wrote: post #35

I'm all for decentralized apps, but before venturing into that kind of complexity, how about getting back control over the Web? It was created as decentralized net (if not in the blockchain sense) and is the work of an entire generation.

That's what this is about. Current web tech is inherently centralizing. Say you want to create an experience like Instagram or Twitter, delivered via HTTP. You have to pay for bandwidth, CDNs, storage, app servers, DB servers, etc etc. At scale, it's millions a month. So only corporations can do it, and with a few exceptions (eg Craigslist, Stack Exchange) they end up monetizing and "growth hacking" in user hostile w…

> The big open question is: can we create an experience as compelling as Instagram or Twitter over the P2P web?

> It's a hard technical challenge, and today the answer is no.

This is why I completely dismiss almost every "distributed" solution. If you can show me a business model/design document for a distributed service that can scale to big tech levels, deliver a user experience that matches current solutions, while also incentivizing developers enough with money to get them to build it, I will be swayed. However, every solution I have seen makes massive tradeoffs that negatively affect all 3 criterias compared to current centralized solutions.

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#119

Post by xj9 »

mrhappyunhappy wrote: post #9

"lose your password and you lose access to everything" - I'm sorry but this UX blunder just won't fly. If we are to have decentralized web we'll need services for key recovery.

this is more of a "using passwords" problem than a "decentralized web" problem. password recovery is a band-aid fix over the real password management problem. i think key-based capability security is the future, but it isn't possible without first moving away from passwords.

i think the UX for a completely keychain-centric auth/authz framework can be much better than what we have today with password managers. a master password + device-entangled PINs protecting per-app/agent keys drastically reduces the possibility of getting locked out of your account AND provides for master password reset by unlocking and re-encrypting your keychain using the local device-entangled key.

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#120

Post by kingnight »

kickscondor wrote: post #70
kingnight wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For blogging use case, I have a few questions: 1. A (current?) limitation I've noticed with Beaker is that you can only edit a site implementation (for a specific address) on a single machine. What would you do if you had multiple computers / locations that would want to make updates (JS or User Content) 2. What about errors. Don't they persist in the address's history? What if there's something undesirable that got…

Yeah, cool - thank you for the questions, kingnight. 1. So this answer is a bit convoluted because I am still learning, wish I could keep it short. So my setup might be a bit 'naughty' because I'm currently saving the 'key' in my JS in a seperate dat. Right now I have one dat that acts as the 'admin' and one that is the actual blog - but I am going to move to hyperdb (the new solution for multi-writer support.) There…

Also your website is amazing. Is that the blog you were referring to? Is there a write up or overview of how it’s all put together. Love it
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