My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#111

Post by gumby » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 12:59 PM UTC

gehsty wrote: post #43

gumby wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then go write back end code for Allstate. (I don't mean any insult to Allstate nor their staff; simply that it'll be a reliable, well paying 9-5). The things the author complains about (low pay, long hours, uncertain future) are positive things for me, which is why I chose the path I did. It usually includes working with really interesting people. I'm glad he abandoned it as it sounds like he would not enjoy it. Ther…

“Low pay long hours uncertain future are positives for me” I think you mean you’ll accept them to work somewhere you want to work, if the exact same job came up but with higher pay, a guarantee that you’d only work 35hrs a week and a clear future you’d prefer the low paying hard hrs job? I work in a none programming job in an unrelated industry and I find start up culture really weird, you have seemingly smart people…

The point is the exact same job won't come up with higher pay and shorter hours; the jobs I like and have been doing for 30 hours really do involve passion+ and a huge lever arm. Crazy, sure, but I've been doing it for 30 years.

> I find start up culture really weird, you have seemingly smart people willing to sacrifice their lives to build something like Pinterest (no disrespect to Pinterest but it is what it is, a social network, not putting men on the moon)... your years 20-30 should be be some of your best years, don’t waste them living in a closet.

I also find it weird -- building Pinterest doesn't seem interesting, and these days (last 15 years) most of the startups are just retail shops that happen to be online. Yawn. The companies I've enjoyed starting and working for have been deeply tech oriented and actually have tried to, or managed to, have significant visible, technical effect on the world. But really, working at Apple in the late 70s/early 80s++ would have been fun, crazy, long hours, huge esprit de corps, and yes, shared housing. But don't you think it would have been worth it?

The dot com boom brought all sorts of carpetbaggers who merely wanted the money, and they changed things for the worse. Though most of them ended up in SF (used to be you lived in SF and worked in Silicon Valley, so the morning traffic jam was leaving the city, not entering it). Though we do have plenty of douchebags down here, the great thing is the SF is like a douchebag magnet. It's paved over most of the craziness of SF replacing it with blandness, but at least it acts as a honeypot for the benefit of the rest of us. This poor kid is simply one of the victims.

+ the real kind, not the "let's make a corporate mission" kind. When you actually want to live in the world where your product is ubiquitous and you only work with people who like their jobs. Crazy to work with people who don't like their jobs, and no amount of money would make that kind of life (working with people who don't like what they do) worth living for me.

++ this example is well before my time; I just picked it because everybody would know it

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#112

Post by gumby » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 1:08 PM UTC

anothergoogler wrote: post #20

gumby wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then go write back end code for Allstate. (I don't mean any insult to Allstate nor their staff; simply that it'll be a reliable, well paying 9-5). The things the author complains about (low pay, long hours, uncertain future) are positive things for me, which is why I chose the path I did. It usually includes working with really interesting people. I'm glad he abandoned it as it sounds like he would not enjoy it. Ther…

Allstate isn't a government jobs program, and they have hiring requirements too.

It's just synecdoche.

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#113

Post by gm-conspiracy » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 1:16 PM UTC

jaclaz wrote: post #100

dhnsmakala wrote: post #33

I call bushit on this story. This article is greatly exaggerated to grab your attention. $1.4k for a closet in an Airbnb with 13 people, where you don't get a key and have to sneak in? Heh. I have found a large room in a newer complex through a company pairing roommates in just a few days. It was $1800. Heck, you could pay $1k for a room in Berkely or Oakland and commute in by Bart.

I too call it bullshit. 12 or 13 "hackers" and noone thought to make a copy of the door key? Come on ...

That is why he is at the bootcamp in the first place...

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#114

Post by hfdgiutdryg » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 1:22 PM UTC

VectorLock wrote: post #46

gumby wrote: post #17

This part struck me as so sad: > Programming for me was never supposed to be more than a means to an end Programming is one of my favorite things to do and I do it even when my job is something else. Why do it if you don't like it? No wonder it seemed hopeless.

There are people who loved programming and then made it a job, and there are people who got into programming because its widely considered to be a good career. Its easy to tell who has a passion for it and who doesn't. Both types have their strengths and weaknesses.

Its easy to tell who has a passion for it and who doesn't.

I've never met anyone with a passion for programming, but I've met a lot of people who misuse the word passion.

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#115

Post by gm-conspiracy » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 1:24 PM UTC

j7ake wrote: post #95

Is this monthly rent what is expected or is this an outlier case?

From multiple recent cursory craigslist searches, it seems you can find a bedroom of your own in a shared apartment/house for $1200, but you would share a bathroom.

For around $2000, you would share an apartment, but have your own bedroom and your own bathroom.

For $3000 to $4000, you can have your own space and bathroom, but that would unlikely be more than 500sqft.

All seem to want a security deposit equivalent to one month's rent.

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#116

Post by walshemj » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 1:27 PM UTC

hfdgiutdryg wrote: post #114

VectorLock wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people who loved programming and then made it a job, and there are people who got into programming because its widely considered to be a good career. Its easy to tell who has a passion for it and who doesn't. Both types have their strengths and weaknesses.

Its easy to tell who has a passion for it and who doesn't. I've never met anyone with a passion for programming, but I've met a lot of people who misuse the word passion.

You must have worked at the wrong sort of company then - they do exist

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#117

Post by cimmanom » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 1:32 PM UTC

jondubois wrote: post #54

indecisive_user wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why do it if you don't like it? Uhh, because it pays well, has good job security and benefits, doesn't require multiple degrees, is respected socially, isn't physically intensive, etc. etc. Most all of my non-programmer friends don't really like their jobs all that much, so if you're not passionate about anything else, my question is why not go into software development?

A lot of people these days think like this. It means that software developers tend to be money oriented these days and it often affects code quality in a negative way. Producing bad code is more lucrative for the developer than producing good code.

You can take pride in doing good work and you can take pride in the outcomes of your work even if you're not passionate about the work for its own sake and even if you wouldn’t be interested in the work without being paid for it.

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#118

Post by walshemj » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 1:33 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #87

sleepychu wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you lined this up already? Do you have examples of places paying London salaries to remote employees?

London salaries are surprisingly low to this US-based employer with employees in a handful of cities around the world. I was expecting “NYC salaries” and instead found more like “Atlanta salaries” which I can’t figure out how the economics works for London-based employees. Given that, lots of US employers with remote work available will be able to hit London salary level I think.

We are considered "greasy" engineers second class professionals London is well know as a place to get good engineers who will work cheaply.

Though London has far better public transport so living 60 miles away and commuting by train isn't to bad.

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#119

Post by idrios » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 1:37 PM UTC

physcab wrote: post #22

This really is only one small segment of the programming population. I really hate superficial shit like this that paints tech workers in a bad light bc most have ordinary jobs and live ordinary lives and aren’t social recluses. I work typical 9-5, wife and kids. We go grocery shopping and make dinner every night together. We live very modestly and we have lots of non-tech friends and family. It’s literaly nothing sp…

As someone else has said, this is specific to the SF bay area, and it's so similar to my experience that it's something I could have written.

I wouldn't say the takeaway is that working in tech is bad so much as it's a criticism of Silicon Valley hype and culture. I read HN a lot in college (2010-2015) and kept reading articles glorifying startups and the Bay Area; so when I graduated, instead of looking for a safe industry job I tried to get a job there (and decided to just move there when I was rejected by a company who said they'd prefer someone local). Even when I did get a job there, my monthly paycheck was lower than my rent--though with promise that I could earn more if I worked there longer.

Overall, SV felt like a very exploitative environment for people young and hopeful, and I'm happy people are calling it out.

Re: My life with 12 programmers, 2 rooms and one 21st-century dream (2016)

#120

Post by walshemj » Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 1:39 PM UTC

mothsonasloth wrote: post #78

I will be trying remote working soon, this whole culture of co-location is the reason you have SF, London, NY etc. I moved away from London because its economically and socially tough. With a remote job I will be able to make a London salary but live wherever I like, enjoy the outdoors and live life how I see fit. SF, Madrid, Berlin, NY are sparkly places where a lot of people (bar the lucky few) end up trapped.

Why do you think "co-location" is bad? its proven to be the best way to work.