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OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

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Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#111

Reaction time seems to be a lot more complicated than just 200ms flat. There were a lot of superhuman reactions that game which really made it difficult for humans to start a fight. At the same time though, increasing much more than 200ms might give a big advantage to humans in other situations. It will be interesting to see if they can find a better way to model it. All in all I am very impressed by the AI. So many…

The human would probably be able to blink/cancel if they were expecting it and therefore able to focus on a single thing prior to an event. The bot can focus on everything simultaneously and doesn't really need to expect anything. It gets a signal, it responds within 200ms, no problem. You could program that analytically. So I would say the superhuman-ness isn't in the number of actions taken, or in the response dela…

The main situation that this was apparent is Euls on Axe when he blinks onto a target.

Axe's Beserker's Call has a 500ms cast time. Euls is instant. Bots have a 200ms reaction time. Humans have 200-300ms.

The problem is the human doesn't just have to react to Axe blinking on top of them and decide to target him with Euls. Humans also have move their mouse cursor onto the Axe, which for a human is hard to do in 200-300ms (the time they have after reacting to the Axe blink).

A comparable situation that happens a lot is using BKB or Manta to react to a similar initiation. Pros can hit this counterplay much easier because they only have to press a keyboard hotkey, rather than move their mouse to a target first.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#112
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, the differences among a top echelon of human expertise are vastly smaller than those between humans and other kinds of agents, animals or AIs. We all share similar cognitive architecture for handling complex domains after all. Once OpenAI Five defeat 3-4 pro teams convincingly, it could be presumed from the observation above that they will defeat any other top teams within a year at most, if sufficient re…

> Once OpenAI Five defeat 3-4 pro teams convincingly, it could be presumed from the observation above that they will defeat any other top teams within a year at most, if sufficient resources are used for improving the AI. An exception is when a fundamental hidden weakness is found in the AI. Not sure how you intended this, but the hero pool constraint is actually an enormous advantage for the AI. The current hero poo…

> I don't know OpenAI selected it, but it's highly conducive to OpenAI Five's strengths--deathballing, mechanics, teamfight coordination, etc. It lacks essentially all of the heroes that humans would normally pick to counter that strategy.

Isn't it the other way around - openai adjusted to the hero pool to come up with its' strategy, because it was trained on this hero pool.

If hero pool had only late-game melee carries - I assume openai would come up with a strategy that works with that.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#113

Reaction time seems to be a lot more complicated than just 200ms flat. There were a lot of superhuman reactions that game which really made it difficult for humans to start a fight. At the same time though, increasing much more than 200ms might give a big advantage to humans in other situations. It will be interesting to see if they can find a better way to model it. All in all I am very impressed by the AI. So many…

The human would probably be able to blink/cancel if they were expecting it and therefore able to focus on a single thing prior to an event. The bot can focus on everything simultaneously and doesn't really need to expect anything. It gets a signal, it responds within 200ms, no problem. You could program that analytically. So I would say the superhuman-ness isn't in the number of actions taken, or in the response dela…

Can't they "just" add a cost to each API call ? Wanna know the position of an enemy on the map: 50ms. Target a hero/creep/tower: 75ms.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#114
So three major differences between this and the last big match for OpenAI Five which explain the different result in favour of the Humans:

1) The Humans, Pain Gaming, is a professional team with players that regularly play and practice together and attend major tournaments. While they are the weakest team at this event and are arguably there only because of a regional qualifier system (they are from South America and the strongest team in an up and coming region), they are capable of taking games off some of the strongest teams due to their unpredictable and dynamic play. They are substantially better than the team of ex-pros and commentators that last played against the AI.

2) They removed an important limitation in the game, which was the 5 invincible couriers, and replaced it with a single killable courier that the five agents have to share (just like in a normal game of dota). The AI was able to use the single courier effectively, but did occasionally let it die a bit too often. What is important about this change is that it invalidated a strategy of the AI which was to continuously ferry consumable healing items to enable relentless aggression after gaining a slight edge in the early game. The AI adapted to this change by playing more cautiously in light of this standard resource/logistics constraint. It adds strength to the argument that as the OpenAI team introduces more complexity and resource constraints back into the game that the AI's weaknesses start to become more apparent and exploitable by better players.

3) The heroes composition was drafted in advance to be as even a match as possible, and a coin flip was made to decide which team got which draft. This is important as the version of the game is a subset of the game, and the humans evidently didn't understand the meta game in this weird subset during the last event. From the AI's perspective this was as even a draft as possible given the very small hero pool. In the last event the AI predicted 70-95% win confidence before the game even started due humans not understanding the drafting meta with a pool of 18/115 heroes and no bans.

Still, really impressive performance by OpenAI as at least for the early game and some of the mid game it was a close game with lots of good plays by both sides. The fact that OpenAI can be comparable to a pro team in what is nearly a full game of dota is really impressive.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#115
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. TI is not a meritocracy. Pain came from the weakest region in the world. Without the SA slot, they wouldn't even be in TI.

And you know that, how? Have you seen them fight against other region teams that failed to qualify?

Maybe, like me, he follows the pro scene.

People complain a lot that Europe is stacked (meaning stronger teams) compared to regions like NA, and they get the same amount of slots a TI. South America is probably the weakest region.

I think a lot of people following the competitive scene would agree with what he was saying - that Pain is not top 20 in the world.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#117
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The human would probably be able to blink/cancel if they were expecting it and therefore able to focus on a single thing prior to an event. The bot can focus on everything simultaneously and doesn't really need to expect anything. It gets a signal, it responds within 200ms, no problem. You could program that analytically. So I would say the superhuman-ness isn't in the number of actions taken, or in the response dela…

Can't they "just" add a cost to each API call ? Wanna know the position of an enemy on the map: 50ms. Target a hero/creep/tower: 75ms.

Just make them drop the API and require use of computer vision on the same UI human players have to use.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#119
post #81
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was frustrating to see it do so many things well but make strange decisions otherwise - poor warding. Some wards were simply wasted. (Wards are small, invisible, immovable units that grant vision) - using powerful long cool down spells to earn gold instead of keeping it in reserve for fights - not recognising that one of the lanes needed to be pushed out. Eventually this bit them in the ass. - using buybacks where…

I don't know if it's still the case, but the OpenAI developers said that the reason why it sometimes wastes wards and smokes is because it doesn't know how to drop items, so it'll just use them to free up inventory space if it wants to buy something new.

I played dota for half a year not knowing you can doubleclick to switch which ward is on the top.

I always disabled joining wards, but when I forgot - I warded like openai, because I had 3 obs wards on top of a sentry and needed to put a sentry somewhere :)

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#120
There are a lot of areas that OpenAI needs to improve on. the bots generally;

1. terrible at warding and dewarding

2. are terrible at using spell spam to farm. while their aoe spell usage is great in team fights, they suck at using spells to farm when they are alone. Gyro used his ult to farm a normal sized lane and still missed half the creeps.

3. don't understand bouncing spells like the lich nuke. In fact many times lich used that spell as a poking spell.

4. Bad at non-nuky/long running ultimates. DP made really bad usage of her ult several times outside of team fights.

5. Bad at judging Roshan respawn.

6. bad at using ability runes.

7. Are bad at juking. They have the right idea to start the juke when the chasing enemy is on a high ground ramp, but they can't time the highground fog jukes properly.

8. not good at prioritizing specific heroes in team fights (cores over supports, if both look equally chasable)

9. terrible at dealing with split pushes. They prioritize defending their towers over everything. Also bad at split pushing, in general.

10. bad at properly utilizing buybacks. If some heroes buyback during the defense, it is expected that the remaining heroes should ensure that the enemies can't escape, otherwise buybacks would be pretty useless.

11. when they are behind, they simply don't have any coherent way of catching up other than taking huge team fights. Which the enemy team will deny the AI, if they are smart.

For now winning lanes and having overwhelming team fighting abilities is the only meta that the AI seems to be doing.

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