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The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

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Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#111

Post by deno »

melling wrote: post #105
deno wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Acknowledging the fact that most people working with computers have horrible postures is not trivializing anything.

Many people claim the Mind Body Approach solved their problem: http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/mb_what_is.html Claiming the entire problem is posture might not be the answer. We should definitely be looking more deeply into the problem and solutions. The creator of Tcl/Tk has been dealing with RSI for over 20 years, for example: http://web.stanford.edu/~ouster/cgi-bin/wrist.php

Obviously I can’t prove a negative, but:

> This made a substantial difference in my comfort level; it's amazing how tense you are under normal conditions and how much you can relax if you know how.

That’s exactly the biggest benefit I got from fixing my posture. Being able to relax. Also fixing my deviated septum, but posture alone can compromise your breathing to that degree as well.

> As soon as I would get up out of my chair and do other activities, the symptoms would go away again.

Bingo.

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#112

Post by ken »

mherrmann wrote: post #66

I feel Carpalx has a less arbitrary, more rigorous solution to this [1]. I've been using its QFMLWY for years. It is hugely better than QWERTY. Though as a programmer, I'm still not fully happy with the Ctrl and Shift keys being in their standard location, and thus at the weakest (pinky) finger. If anyone would like to give QFMLWY a go, let me know. I have scripts to install it on Win, Mac and Ubuntu. [1] http://mkwe…

> the weakest (pinky) finger

A lot of keyboard layout enthusiasts (including the linked article) make this claim, but is there any evidence for it? As someone who as trained in various arts that use the hand, I've always been told by all of my teachers that the pinky is the strongest finger.

This article rates the first two fingers "very strong" and "strong", while ring and pinky are both "weak", yet a ring/pinky pull-up doesn't seem any more difficult than an index/middle pull-up. Strong enough to lift my body weight, but too weak to press keys on a modern keyboard? I'm skeptical.

The most believable answer I've found so far, as to the relative strength of the fingers, is [1], which is a multi-faceted "it depends". There's no standard way to measure strength, and there are many different kinds of strength a finger can exert. How exactly are we defining "finger strength" for typing, and how are we measuring it?

[1] https://100hourboard.org/questions/52873/

The Dvorak layout has many advantages (I've been using it for over 25 years myself) but the idea that it's better because it uses your "stronger" fingers is just a canard.

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#113

Post by deno »

tjoff wrote: post #110
vemv wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lifting your arms doesn't mean keeping them in a static position. They are lifted when you're typing; else they lean on your legs (much better than using some kind of cushion/surface, since your legs don't compress your wrists). Also, one can vary the arms' angle/etc during the day. The bad part about wrist/arm rests is - very likely they compress various layers of your body, and they force you to contort your wrists…

Maybe I overestimate how much I use the keyboard but I still see hours on straight where I would not want to move my hands away from the keyboard. You don't need to reach for the keyboard due to supports, you are resting on the home row. Yes, movement is important and one should take breaks but that is something one should do regardless of posture. I see how lifting hands can improve that but it has to be balanced ag…

When you bend your arms at 90° where are your palms? With proper posture/keyboard height they should be over the keyboard. If you’re sitting straight it’s natural to bring your keyboard to the edge of the desk. But if you prefer to be under the desk then just rest on the desk.

I made a really quick sketch some time ago maybe it helps: http://svgur.com/s/7e6

That wrist angle on the green dude is very exaggerated, the point was to show that the fingers are in their natural positions, rather than curled, which is what happens when your wrists are glued.

EDIT: Also just look where the piano lady is resting her hands.

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#114

Post by brandonmenc »

deno wrote: post #61

Sit up straight (fix your posture) and stop gluing your wrists to the desk or wrist “support” and the layout doesn’t matter unless you’re going for typing records. There is no magical layout that can eliminate the tension you’re artificially creating by stretching your fingers into unnatural positions instead of just moving the entire hand. What healthy typing looks like (on a horrible keyboard no less): https://www.…

Agree with you in general - that adjusting your body, and not your keyboard, is the fix - but not necessarily the specifics.

The most important fixes imo are:

- Neutral angle wrists (elbows flared so that it's a straight line from the elbow to the fingertips, i.e. no wrist "yaw")

- Monitor at eye-level

- Forearms parallel to the ground

- Feet planted on the floor

afaik slouching takes pressure of the lumbar vertebrae, but neither that nor sitting up straight is uncomfortable for me, and I arbitrarily alternate between the two. Also, arms resting on the desk doesn't bother me.

I find it nearly impossible to work on a laptop for any length of time, mostly because of the monitor-at-eye-level requirement. Speaking of, an adjustable monitor arm is the best investment you can make. I use the Humanscale M2.

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#115

Post by mherrmann »

ken wrote: post #112
mherrmann wrote: post #66

I feel Carpalx has a less arbitrary, more rigorous solution to this [1]. I've been using its QFMLWY for years. It is hugely better than QWERTY. Though as a programmer, I'm still not fully happy with the Ctrl and Shift keys being in their standard location, and thus at the weakest (pinky) finger. If anyone would like to give QFMLWY a go, let me know. I have scripts to install it on Win, Mac and Ubuntu. [1] http://mkwe…

> the weakest (pinky) finger A lot of keyboard layout enthusiasts (including the linked article) make this claim, but is there any evidence for it? As someone who as trained in various arts that use the hand, I've always been told by all of my teachers that the pinky is the strongest finger. This article rates the first two fingers "very strong" and "strong", while ring and pinky are both "weak", yet a ring/pinky pul…

The pinky being the weakest perfectly matches my subjective experience. My wrist pain is at the outside of my wrist. The more I use my pinky, the worse it gets.

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#116

Post by acheron »

mauvehaus wrote: post #85
chrismorgan wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have keyboards with physically different layouts—e.g. one ergonomic, one typical laptop, one swipey touchscreen—and use them all at least occasionally, you’ll be able to develop independent muscle memories for each. Go ahead and learn a different layout on a fancy keyboard, while keeping a stock standard layout (not even remapping Caps Lock to anything!) on a laptop keyboard, and I understand you’ll have littl…

I can confirm that having physically different keyboards makes it much easier to switch back and forth. Many years ago, I worked for a company that had a mess of old Sun hardware in the lab with the old Sun-layout[0] keyboards. After about a week of using them, I was pretty comfortable using them, and had no trouble switching back and forth the the customary layout keyboard at my desk. One day, I discovered the one S…

Sun keyboards are nice for pair programming, since when your partner does something good you can press the 'props' key.

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#117

Post by flyingfences »

cammil wrote: post #46
floatboth wrote: post #33

> Try typing “The” with the T capitalized on Colemak and hopefully you’ll see what I mean. Your right hand will move somewhat like this: you swing to the right to get the SHIFT key with your pinky, then you swing back to the left to get the letter ‘H’, and then you move to the right again to get the letter ‘E’. Why would you use the right shift here?? I shift with the left pinky in this situation and it feels fine. C…

I think there is a theory that one "should" use the _other_ hand for any modifiers. Presumably and primarily so that the letter key is always pressed using the same finger and position of the hand.

> Presumably and primarily so that the letter key is always pressed using the same finger and position of the hand.

But it is. Hitting the left shift in the scenario described literally just takes pulling the left pinky down.

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#119

Post by sixstringtheory »

bena wrote: post #108
jimmy1 wrote: post #92

> I didn’t like the way Dvorak was laid out especially for the weak fingers of the right hand. I am not sure if I only know this from playing piano and guitar, but it is surprisingly easy to strengthen those fingers. The exercise is very simple and all it takes is a couple minutes a day, it can be done anywhere (even better if you have a piano or guitar!): 1. Lay your fingers on a table, and curl them like you were a…

Thanks for that. I've started playing guitar a few years ago and my ring fingers are pretty weak and dependent. I can't do the Vulcan salute for instance, my ring finger is kind of "tied" to my pinky.

I’ve done a similar one that might help you. Same starting position with all fingertips on the table, fingers curled in piano position. Do the lift with pinky and middle finger at the same time, then down, then lift ring and index finger, then down and repeat. My goal for this is speed instead of strength, but you’ll definitely feel yourself working on that tie between your ring and pinky finger.

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#120

Post by deno »

brandonmenc wrote: post #114
deno wrote: post #61

Sit up straight (fix your posture) and stop gluing your wrists to the desk or wrist “support” and the layout doesn’t matter unless you’re going for typing records. There is no magical layout that can eliminate the tension you’re artificially creating by stretching your fingers into unnatural positions instead of just moving the entire hand. What healthy typing looks like (on a horrible keyboard no less): https://www.…

Agree with you in general - that adjusting your body, and not your keyboard, is the fix - but not necessarily the specifics. The most important fixes imo are: - Neutral angle wrists (elbows flared so that it's a straight line from the elbow to the fingertips, i.e. no wrist "yaw") - Monitor at eye-level - Forearms parallel to the ground - Feet planted on the floor afaik slouching takes pressure of the lumbar vertebrae…

I take no issue with anything on that list. The pressure on lumbar is because of the positioning of your pelvis[1].

> Speaking of, an adjustable monitor arm is the best investment you can make. I use the Humanscale M2.

I have my monitor on top of an entire hifi set and an old VHS player. But yeah an arm seems more sensible ;)

[1] https://i.imgur.com/mp9uqLb.jpg

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