National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions • Hacker News Board

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#111

Post by jpindar » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:48 PM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #30

troupe wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's immoral and unethical, but it's legal. Do you think it is reasonable for people in prison to work to offset some of the cost of their room and board or do you think it should all be paid for by taxpayers? (I have a problem with creating an economic incentive to keep people in prison, but less of a problem with giving people something to do that helps pay for their food.)

I know this will sound pretty simplistic, but a prisoner is either a threat to society or they are not. If they are a threat to society, why are they given access to computers, the internet and programming tools? (The security implications should be obvious there.) Even better, why are they let outside the prison at all ? If they are not a threat to society, why am I paying any amount of tax money to keep them in pri…

What country are you talking about that gives prisoners "access to computers, the internet and programming tools"?

(I've heard of them being able to send email to whitelisted addresses from locked down kiosks, but that's not the internet as we know it.)

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#112

Post by ada1981 » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:49 PM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison.

This actually seems like a pretty good deal, what would you pay to get a day off your sentence?

That said, I think the Prision system is fucked, has horrible incentives, private companies abuse bought prison labor, etc. etc.

But I actually felt like this program was pretty good - though they ought to let them become fire fighters!

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#113

Post by lovich » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:50 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #94

lovich wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We explicitly do not say it's ok to force children to pay for their own upkeep. A parent is required to take care of their child and that is legally enforced, but a child can refuse all chores and the government doesn't punish them. In fact, the government will punish the parents if they try to not take care of their child or punish them too severely for not doing their chores

That's absolutely not true. Parents are legally entitled to use coercion and punishment to force children to pay for their own upkeep. That's one of the key reasons people used to have kids until relatively recently--for help on the farm.

Go ahead and beat your kid because he's not doing the dishes. Feed them sub standard food and not enough at that. If he talks back at all, throw him in an empty room for a week or two with no human contact.

Let's see how long you can do that before the government and society come down on you

Edit: I don't think "relatively recently" even applies here. Child labor laws were passed long before we had laws allowing things like mixed race marriage, gay marriage, civil rights for minorities, and other social changes. We are no longer an agrarian society that needs mass free labor to survive

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#114

Post by kevmo » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:52 PM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #77

kevmo wrote: post #50

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." - 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution Whenever anyone says slavery no longer exists in America, I point them to this. The foundational document of our system of government expressly allows slavery. We house…

Can any lawyer comment? A reading of the 13th amendment seems to justify involuntary servitude as a punishment for a crime, does this mean prison labor that isn't included in a sentence a violation of the 13th amendment? Just reading of this seems to allow one to make an legal argument along those lines, so I imagine there must have been some case that lead to a clarification of the 13th in the intervening century or…

I have a law degree and used to work for a federal judge (am a developer now, though).

The 13th Amendment says that you can enslave someone as part of their post-conviction sentencing. This is very broad language and allows for the general slavery of anyone who has been convicted of a crime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_Stat...

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#115

Post by alpha_squared » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:53 PM UTC

PurpleBoxDragon wrote: post #55

prolikewh0a wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's technically not illegal under the 13th amendment. > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. It's immoral and unethical, but it's legal. Not saying I agree with that part of the 13th amendment, I abhor it personally.

Is it immoral by default, or due to implementation? For example, consider a prison which forces (which I'll define as however the prisons currently gets inmates to work the jobs) it's inmates to attend classes to learn job skills and avoid behaviors that landed them in prison. Would this not also be a form of slavery given they are forced to attend? Slavery isn't defined by the slave doing something useful to the own…

> For example, consider a prison which forces ... it's [sic] inmates to attend classes to learn job skills and avoid behaviors that landed them in prison. Would this not also be a form of slavery given they are forced to attend? Slavery isn't defined by the slave doing something useful to the owner. A slave is still a slave even if they are doing nothing or if they are being commanded to improve themselves. And in this case I wouldn't see it as immoral.

This raised all sorts of alarms in my head, so I decided to look up a more formal definition. In this case, the source is Wikipedia[0]:

> Slavery is any system in which principles of property law are applied to people, allowing individuals to own, buy and sell other individuals, as a de jure form of property. A slave is unable to withdraw unilaterally from such an arrangement and works without remuneration. Many scholars now use the term chattel slavery to refer to this specific sense of legalised, de jure slavery. In a broader sense, however, the word slavery may also refer to any situation in which an individual is de facto forced to work against their own will.

Your redefinition of slavery is significantly broader than the accepted definition of it. This is extremely problematic in trying to talk about whether or not it's immoral.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#116

Post by Broken_Hippo » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:54 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #64

makecheck wrote: post #41

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, a…

I’m not sure prisons should offer gainful employment to prisoners. Teaching, training, therapy, yes, please, absolutely. Humane conditions and treatment from the guards most definitely. But minimum wage? I’m not sure. I like the idea of inmates being able to complete their sentence with some funds they’ve saved up to help get back on their feet. But that’s what halfway houses are supposed to support I guess?

But we don't provide that stuff either. Most prisoners have to pay for basically everything but the bed they sleep on, prison clothing, and food - which is sometimes bad. Need soap? Tampons? Underwear? Be prepared to buy it. We don't provide halfway houses for everyone either [1]. No job placement after getting out. No help finding housing nor any money to start a life. Parole officers often won't work around work hours, so folks have to take off work to see them.

I don't really mind prisoners doing basic upkeep in prisons (housekeeping, laundry, food prep, and things like that) for a few hours a week. This sort of thing is normal in a household, after all, and part of being a productive member of society. Anything outside of that is slave labor if you aren't getting paid anything but a pittance for it and have nothing to show for it when you leave. I don't mind it being reduced minimum wage (25-33% less, for example), but it should be more than it is.

If anything, prisoners would have a fund saved up for when they leave. We wouldn't have to make the prisoners families suffer if they can send money home for food and such. And they could buy basic toiletries.

[1] https://www.lawyers.com/legal-info/criminal/criminal-law-bas...

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#117

Post by uxp100 » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:54 PM UTC

vageli wrote: post #79

uxp100 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference between a teenager mowing the lawn for their parents and someone paid to mow a lawn? Furthermore, when a farmer's child does chores alongside a paid laborer, what's going on?

One is familial, the other is a business relationship.

So your definition of labor refers only to, for lack of a better term, "work" done in a business relationship?

Then I don't think it really applies to this situation, since just as familial relations are superseding "business" relations in your example, certainly the prison relations change the nature of the business relations drastically.

But I think this is certainly labor, but the distinction between labor and chore is not so clear. I don't think it matters to the inmates, but I found it bizarre how confident HNers are that chores and labor are intrinsically different.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#118

Post by rosser » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:54 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #98

fzeroracer wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One is an adult. They have freedoms which we, as a society, have taken away due to whatever offense they have committed (potentially as light as possession of Marijuana). One is a child. They do not have the freedoms which we, as a society, have given them yet due to their age, lack of maturity and lack of means.

What is the logic for giving more preferential treatment to someone who is a ward because they did something bad, versus a child who is a ward despite being completely innocent?

> ...more preferential treatment...

I don't see this position being articulated here. Can you help me understand how you read the people disagreeing with you as saying that?

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#119

Post by WhompingWindows » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:55 PM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

Did society put people away, or did the policy-makers who have come to represent a shrinking fraction of the electorate and an increasingly strong corporate sector? If for-profit prisons lobby to maintain non-violent drug offenses and the ludicrously failed drug war, which swell prison ranks and the coffers of prison ownership, then how is it "society at large" that is to blame?

Issue after issue, money is a terrible influence in our politics.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#120

Post by chillacy » Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 8:55 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #94

lovich wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We explicitly do not say it's ok to force children to pay for their own upkeep. A parent is required to take care of their child and that is legally enforced, but a child can refuse all chores and the government doesn't punish them. In fact, the government will punish the parents if they try to not take care of their child or punish them too severely for not doing their chores

That's absolutely not true. Parents are legally entitled to use coercion and punishment to force children to pay for their own upkeep. That's one of the key reasons people used to have kids until relatively recently--for help on the farm.

I think the tenses are inconsistent in the sentences you wrote there.

Life has more value in well off western countries today. Child mortality is low. Families have few children. So no, you can’t abuse your kids, the state doesn’t like that.