Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#111

Post by DanAndersen » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 9:48 PM UTC

One thing that hasn't yet been remarked on here is that the 48-hour-warning message said that the linked posts were flagged for having phishing links. Notice that the statements made afterward by MS were not on the grounds of the original "phishing links" report, but focusing on the content.

However, if you look at the posts, you'll see a fair amount of unsavory content but no phishing links.

I feel like this was purposeful on the part of whatever political group made these reports.

Most likely, these hosting companies have automated anti-spam/phishing systems whereby, if a large number of reports come in, they will automatically send out an alert to the suspected offending party.

If Outraged Group X goes to the company saying "this site you're hosting has vile speech and so you should take it down," it probably has to go through an internal company process, which might have a slightly higher bar for acting on it.

However, if Outraged Group X falsely claims that "this site is hosting phishing links", something which might trigger an algorithmic response, then the company cannot easily reverse course -- because then the story becomes "Company ABC actively reverses course on allowing hate speech." The PR fallout locks them in.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#112

Post by int_19h » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 9:48 PM UTC

ilove_banh_mi wrote: post #88

mcguire wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, there's no principle that requires an entity like Microsoft to support services it or its customers find repugnant.

What do you think of a bakery refusing to make a wedding cake for people they disapprove of?

Depends on the reason for disapproval, and how common that same reason is in that particular market.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#113

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 9:49 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #102

lylecubed wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And who decides what is and isn't a silly idea? For 40 years, Americans were told by the government to believe that low fat high carb diets were the key to a healthy life. Not only is that not true, but it's never been true. There was never any evidence to support that stance. And yet, that was the official government policy and subsequently the commonly held belief for 40 years. "It ain’t what you don’t know that ge…

> And who decides what is and isn't a silly idea? Any private, non-common-carrier party that is asked to relay it. That is what freedom of speech/press means: people are free to evaluate content and decide for themselves whether to participate in spreading it.

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#114

Post by mmanfrin » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 9:49 PM UTC

Nadya wrote: post #31

A common argument in philosophy is that bad ideas should occur in the open - where everyone may ridicule them. When they are cast to the shadows they can grow, under everyone's noses, in private where only there are they allowed to exist. In private, these bad ideas cannot be challenged by others and people will be convinced to believe in them, with nobody challenging the idea as a genuinely terrible idea. It gives b…

  A common argument in philosophy is that bad ideas should 
  occur in the open - where everyone may ridicule them.

Unless people with those bad ideas find communities that accept those bad ideas. This is what happens with content bubbles and niche extremist communities.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#115

Post by DanAndersen » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 9:50 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #109

CM30 wrote: post #86

This sort of thing illustrates the biggest issue with web hosting, domain registrars and the internet's infrastructure in general; everything is privately owned by companies who get unlimited rights to decide who and what they want to host. The solution is to require all hosting and domain companies to act as utilities, and require neutrality in regards to any content that's legal. They're not private forums or homes…

> Why do/did ISPs have to deal with net neutrality while large hosting companies and registrars get free reign? Because ISPs are, because of infrastructure (access to and across property, or access to scarce spectrum) requirements, naturally sharply limited, but anyone who connects to an ISP can host content.

Anyone with a server can host content in a technical sense, but can it ever scale without playing ideologically with the big players?

One tactic for deplatforming undesirable sites is a DDoS -- if you put your home server online, what options do you have for DDoS mitigation if the big players in that space decide they're on the political side of those doing the DDoS?

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#116

Post by int_19h » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 9:50 PM UTC

devmunchies wrote: post #83

slater wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gab isn't political or "alt-right" haha, good one!

its the last recourse for the alt-right because other platforms censor them. I'm sure if you posted far-left stuff on there it wouldn't be censored either, but there is no point because most social media platforms don't censor far-left thoughts anyway.

> most social media platforms don't censor far-left thoughts anyway.

They do, though.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/08/09/google-censors-block...

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#117

Post by anigbrowl » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 9:51 PM UTC

ilove_banh_mi wrote: post #88

mcguire wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, there's no principle that requires an entity like Microsoft to support services it or its customers find repugnant.

What do you think of a bakery refusing to make a wedding cake for people they disapprove of?

This is a poor point of comparison, since baking the cake doesn't put anyone at risk, whereas an exhortation to commit violence against specific people does.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#118

Post by millzlane » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 9:52 PM UTC

CM30 wrote: post #86

This sort of thing illustrates the biggest issue with web hosting, domain registrars and the internet's infrastructure in general; everything is privately owned by companies who get unlimited rights to decide who and what they want to host. The solution is to require all hosting and domain companies to act as utilities, and require neutrality in regards to any content that's legal. They're not private forums or homes…

Are people still able to download a web server and host their own content? What does anyone need a host for? If a bunch of angry racists want to start their own social network, they could build it, if they really wanted a place to spew their hate. Is anyone really stopping them from connecting to the internet?

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#119

Post by zkms » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 9:52 PM UTC

PurpleBoxDragon wrote: post #18

makomk wrote: post #5

The posts in question are frankly pretty awful, but this does kind of put the lie to the idea that if you don't like FaceGoogleBook's censorship you can just set up your own website.

Well you can host your own website on your own server. Of course, I do wonder how far this goes. What happens if the DNS server refuses to host the IP lookup? Host your own DNS server? What if the browsers refuse to allow access to the site? Build your own browser? What if ISPs refuse to transfer the data over the wire? Make your own internet? People have defended that this vs. Net Neutrality (at least the extent of…

> Well you can host your own website on your own server.

Sure, then the people who drove you off Facebook/Amazon/Apple iTunes/Youtube/Azure/EC2/Digitalocean/Cloudflare will go after your DNS registrar and the ISP/CDN/colocation-facility you're using. They won't give up and they'll ruthlessly go after every single commercial entity you do business with. After all, if it's not the government punishing you for speech, it's not censorship and it's fine!

That's the trick of this kind of lawfare -- having any kind of internet presence inherently involves relationships with private, non-governmental entities, and it's disturbingly easy to suborn them and shame them into refusing to do business with unsavoury people.

Re: Microsoft threatens to stop hosting Gab unless posts are removed

#120

Post by chc » Thu, Aug 09, 2018, 9:52 PM UTC

will_dev_4_food wrote: post #89

braythwayt wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That argument works well in relatively small social groups where people generally can be relied upon to act in good faith, and where there are social disincentives to clinging to bad ideas after they have been refuted. When you have a small group with social bonds, you don't have to worry about a bad actor constantly repeating their already-refuted arguments to people who haven't heard the refutation. But when you ha…

When you say it’s like this one way but not the other, you have conceded to relativism. You have basically said there is a time and place for stealing someone’s wallet, and that acting as a moral agent in society can be suspended under the right conditions.

I think most people would agree that there are indeed times and places when stealing is acceptable. It is never ideal, but sometimes the alternatives are worse. The bad sort of relativism is a weakness of principles, not the same set of principles leading you to prefer different actions in different circumstances.

For another example of this kind of relativism, I would harm somebody in self-defense or the defense of another, but I would not harm somebody just because I didn't like them. The underlying principles are the same even though the right action is conditional on the situation.