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A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

theguardian.com

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Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#111

Post by shoguning »

I disagree totally. A PhD should be about curiosity and asking the most interesting scientific questions you can think of, also known as 'basic research'. You have the rest of your career to have as much impact on society and commerce as you want.

Unfortunately, the social impact factor has been creeping in, in the form of more 'applied research' funding which is not fundamental and does not move scientific knowledge forward. The government has limited role in funding applied research, since industry is better positioned to understand what applied research is important and has a strong incentive to fund it.

Academia is imperfect, but the genius of the system is that letting scientists chase down interesting things does end up improving society dramatically in the long run.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#112

Post by Someguywhatever »

shoguning wrote: post #111

I disagree totally. A PhD should be about curiosity and asking the most interesting scientific questions you can think of, also known as 'basic research'. You have the rest of your career to have as much impact on society and commerce as you want. Unfortunately, the social impact factor has been creeping in, in the form of more 'applied research' funding which is not fundamental and does not move scientific knowledge…

I agree (with you). I think also it's not crystal clear what exactly 'benefits society', so what to research then? Let people research what they want to, at least they'll be passionate about it and maybe 'reach the end' when they otherwise wouldn't if that makes sense.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#113

Post by roel_v »

chrisseaton wrote: post #66
knappa wrote: post #61

A lot of this seems ridiculous: > Mental health issues are rife: approximately one-third of PhD students are at risk of having or developing a psychiatric disorder like depression. The baseline percentage of the population which experience depression (and other mental illness) each year is known to be pretty high -- and highest in for people in their 20's. One third sounds fairly normal; at any rate, there is a burde…

> If you are starting from an undergraduate degree, you probably need at least two years to take the PhD intro classes. Outside of the US, I don't think most PhD students take 'classes'. In Europe a PhD is purely a research degree.

In Europe you won't get hired if you only have an undergrad degree.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#114

Post by MrEfficiency »

shoguning wrote: post #111

I disagree totally. A PhD should be about curiosity and asking the most interesting scientific questions you can think of, also known as 'basic research'. You have the rest of your career to have as much impact on society and commerce as you want. Unfortunately, the social impact factor has been creeping in, in the form of more 'applied research' funding which is not fundamental and does not move scientific knowledge…

I talked to Two advisers + 1 role model before deciding a PhD wasnt right for me.

The professors wanted to push their own ideas rather than my own. I knew the problems I wanted to solve were highly desired as I was getting hundreds of people visiting my website a day.

The two professors were pushing that the PhD process would teach me how to research, but I realized that I would be the professor's tool.

I talked to someone I looked up to, while he wasnt incredibly successful, he told me that- I was ready to do something, I no longer needed school.

I'm very thankful, I had a bachelors and masters degree in engineering fields with industry experience. I had products people were paying money for. The PhD didnt seem like it would be as valuable as 2-6 years of working on my website or other projects.

My take- If you arent going to work, school can force you to work hard. If you are already inspired, you are ready for life, go go go.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#115

Post by quietbritishjim »

roel_v wrote: post #113
chrisseaton wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are starting from an undergraduate degree, you probably need at least two years to take the PhD intro classes. Outside of the US, I don't think most PhD students take 'classes'. In Europe a PhD is purely a research degree.

In Europe you won't get hired if you only have an undergrad degree.

Putting aside the fact that this is clearly untrue, what does it have to do with the parent or GP comment?

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#117

Post by ikeyany »

jderick wrote: post #75
knappa wrote: post #61

A lot of this seems ridiculous: > Mental health issues are rife: approximately one-third of PhD students are at risk of having or developing a psychiatric disorder like depression. The baseline percentage of the population which experience depression (and other mental illness) each year is known to be pretty high -- and highest in for people in their 20's. One third sounds fairly normal; at any rate, there is a burde…

According to this website, the baseline for depression in America is 6.7%. http://www.mentalhealthamerica.net/conditions/depression 1/3 is not normal at all.

Your article says 6.7% of Americans have a depression in a given year, not that 6.7% of Americans get depression at all.

That can very well mean 1/3 of Americans get depression over their entire lives, and a PhD program would seem like the time to get it.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#118

Post by mikec3010 »

UncleMeat wrote: post #100
klodolph wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my own personal experience, professors and academic advisers have consistently given me the worst advice (about choosing a path or personal development) when I have asked for it. It takes a certain temperament to become a professor. There are a couple exceptions, but most of the professors and academic advisers I talked to seemed to be unable or unwilling to connect with people who were not there for academia qua…

I'm the inverse, and so are most people I know. Every faculty member I spoke to in undergrad told me very clearly that a PhD was bad for my career, enormously stressful and risky, and led to a faculty job search that was likely to fail. I was told not to pursue it unless I desperately wanted to be a faculty member. The most common advice I got was "don't do it". This wasn't because I was a shitty candidate. I was acc…

That could also be gate keeping. The fewer people who want a slice of the pie the better.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#119

Post by doctorsher »

apo wrote: post #14

When you look at the stats, it’s hard not to conclude that the current PhD system is fundamentally broken. Mental health issues are rife: approximately one-third of PhD students are at risk of having or developing a psychiatric disorder like depression. The high level of dropouts is similarly worrying – and possibly another symptom of the same problem. Research suggests that on average 50% of PhD students leave gradu…

> The biggest risk factor I've found for a PhD student is lack of research experience during the undergrad degree.

Previous research experience might help, but there still are a number of factors that need to align in order to have a relatively smooth PhD. In my mind, it depends on the quality of your previous research experience, your advisor, and your goals upon graduation.

For my experience in particular, I did two summers of research at an R1 when I was in undergrad. Continuing on that path, I went to graduate school for my PhD. I am five years in; looking back, I was still extremely unprepared for the realities of research. When I did the undergraduate research, my hand was being held by the PhD students I was working under. Sure, I did some interesting stuff, but I received a substantial amount of guidance. Now in graduate school, my PhD advisor is very hands off, and our group tends to work in isolation. I have to push my research forward on my own. It took me years to get used to this, and not feel completely incompetent. My previous research experience was not a good predictor of my life as a PhD student.

In my mind, the best preparation would be to do a thesis-based masters degree and try to publish during that.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#120

Post by mindcrime »

btrettel wrote: post #50
extralego wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These phenomenons are interesting to witness for someone like myself who loves doing research but followed a very different academic path because I felt demonized by formal school systems in high school and at a state uni. Speaking purely from observation of many peers, there were definitely some who navigated the social and academic realms well, and garnered respect from socially-encourageable and conformist mentors…

I agree that academia selects for conformists, which is bad for curiousity driven research. Jeff Schmidt's book "Disciplined Minds" makes a similar argument. I have not read it all, though, so perhaps I should pick it up again. The book has a good description of the problem, but in my view the author views the process as more political than it necessarily is. I also think the book's solutions are unlikely to help. Bu…

Jeff Schmidt's book "Disciplined Minds" makes a similar argument. I have not read it all, though, so perhaps I should pick it up again.

Having never heard of this book, I googled it after your mention and found this:

http://disciplinedminds.tripod.com

which immediately convinced me to order a copy. Sounds like fascinating stuff. Thanks for bringing this up!

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