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That sinking feeling

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Re: That sinking feeling

#111

Post by lmm »

Symmetry wrote: post #53
bilbo0s wrote: post #24

Just an outsider's opinion, but I think that they had a vote. They probably should not have voted "Leave", but they did. So now you have to get on with the business of implementing the will of the people. It might come out just as the author has outlined, or it might not be that bad, or it might be far worse than even the author has envisioned. The thing is, whatever the consequences and benefits are, they are conseq…

Two things. First, the UK is a representative democracy ruled by Parliament and if Parliament decides they don't want to do something they don't have to and the way for the people to indicate their displeasure is to elect new people to Parliament. Second, the will of the people is a nebulous thing. Brexit won with slightly more than half the vote but that was in 2016. Since then many Brexit voters have died, many new…

> It's very likely that if they had another referendum now people would vote to stay in the EU.

AIUI this is, while an article of faith for many on the "remain" side, entirely unsubstantiated.

Re: That sinking feeling

#112

Post by BerislavLopac »

lmm wrote: post #100
ardillaroja wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But let's say the 48% that voted to remain in the EU had grown to say 55% that didn't like the sound of the Brexit deal being hashed out and would prefer the status quo. Would it be reasonable for our politicians to try and use the levers of government to reverse course to represent the new will of the people? At the end of the day I don't think the public were qualified to answer the question as it was posed. There…

> But let's say the 48% that voted to remain in the EU had grown to say 55% that didn't like the sound of the Brexit deal being hashed out and would prefer the status quo. Would it be reasonable for our politicians to try and use the levers of government to reverse course to represent the new will of the people? You can't keep asking the people until they give the answer you want and then seize on that. Holding anoth…

> his party is duty-bound to implement its results

And what are the results? To leave with no deal?

In any case it is NOT legally bound. But it acts as it was.

Re: That sinking feeling

#113

Post by BerislavLopac »

jlavine wrote: post #92
Symmetry wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two things. First, the UK is a representative democracy ruled by Parliament and if Parliament decides they don't want to do something they don't have to and the way for the people to indicate their displeasure is to elect new people to Parliament. Second, the will of the people is a nebulous thing. Brexit won with slightly more than half the vote but that was in 2016. Since then many Brexit voters have died, many new…

The promises of Parliament and the will of the people regarding Brexit were about as clear as it gets in any democracy. Parliament voted to have the referendum. The referendum was simply and clearly expressed (though not at all detailed), each side had months to state their case, and the results were uncontroversial. Parliament followed the referendum with a vote to trigger Article 50. Subsequent elections resulted i…

> each side had months to state their case

With one side directly and openly lying, and breaking funding laws in the process.

> and the results were uncontroversial

Anything BUT controversial.

Re: That sinking feeling

#114

Post by wilsonnb2 »

api wrote: post #80
mcphage wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've spoken to people who are cheering for these kinds of effects. An actual quote: "I hope Trump does as much damage as possible." And he will—to the people that voted for him. Not to the rich pushing globalization; they're going to make out quite well from him. So on one hand, I do understand the desire for boat-rocking—but when the form they chose was a game of Russian Roulette against themselves, my sympathy ra…

I think some of them know that. Would it really be any better if they'd not rioted in the voting booth? If anything the trends that are destroying the American working and middle class are accelerating. They have nothing to lose that wouldn't be lost anyway. You're totally right that the result will just make them angrier and the cycle will repeat. This is how civilizations fall. If liberals want to do anything about…

> If liberals want to do anything about it they need to start actually giving a damn about America's poor and rapidly shrinking middle class in spite of the fact that they hold "backward and primitive" religious beliefs and are behind the times on social issues.

Hillary focused so much on the shrinking middle class and the poor during the 2016 election - I can't believe that anyone who has actually read her policy suggestions (or the policy suggestions of most other Democrats) can say that liberals don't give a damn about America's poor and shrinking middle class with a straight face.

Here's a selection of Hillary Clinton's policy positions from the 2016 election that would help the poor or the shrinking middle class. I understand that most of them aren't actual policy - however, if you go to the website where I pulled this from [1] you can find information about specific policy as well. I just went for the quotes here to make my point while keeping the comment brief.

> "Provide tax relief to working families from the rising costs they face"

> "Simplify and cut taxes for small businesses so they can hire and grow."

> "Make debt free college available to all Americans."

> "Hillary Clinton has announced a $275 billion, five-year plan to rebuild our infrastructure—and put Americans to work in the process."

> "Bring down out-of-pocket costs like copays and deductibles"

> "Reduce the cost of prescription drugs."

> "Fight for health insurance for the lowest-income Americans in every state by incentivizing states to expand Medicaid"

> "Expand access to rural Americans, who often have difficulty finding quality, affordable health care"

> "Remove barriers to sustainable homeownership."

> "Help responsible homeowners save for a down payment."

> "Defend the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau"

> "Strengthen American manufacturing with a $10 billion “Make it in America” plan."

> "Restore collective bargaining rights for unions and defend against partisan attacks on workers’ rights."

> "calling for a tax credit for businesses that hire apprentices, providing much needed on-the-job training—especially for young Americans."

[1] https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/

Re: That sinking feeling

#115

Post by api »

wilsonnb2 wrote: post #114
api wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think some of them know that. Would it really be any better if they'd not rioted in the voting booth? If anything the trends that are destroying the American working and middle class are accelerating. They have nothing to lose that wouldn't be lost anyway. You're totally right that the result will just make them angrier and the cycle will repeat. This is how civilizations fall. If liberals want to do anything about…

> If liberals want to do anything about it they need to start actually giving a damn about America's poor and rapidly shrinking middle class in spite of the fact that they hold "backward and primitive" religious beliefs and are behind the times on social issues. Hillary focused so much on the shrinking middle class and the poor during the 2016 election - I can't believe that anyone who has actually read her policy su…

An important point that I made above is that the time to do something about these issues was in the early 2000s. At this point the issue has been ignored for so long that people have lost all trust in the current establishment. They assume any promises from the current establishment are BS to get them to vote and will be forgotten right after the election.

If your house has been on fire forever and is burned down to cinders and the fire department finally shows up you're not going to thank them. You're going to yell at them and tear them a new one. You're probably so mad that you're going to tear the hose out of the hydrant and scream "let it f'ing burn you !#$!#$!#"

The house has been on fire since the mid-1970s. The roof collapsed in 2008.

I think it might aid understanding to look only at the Republican primary. Jeb Bush was the favorite, and Trump destroyed him. Jeb like Hillary was seen as establishment, a relative of two former presidents who also had an opportunity to put out the fire but did nothing.

Hillary Clinton is a part of the establishment. Her husband is a former president who presided over a booming decade when these problems could have been fixed but weren't.

Trump rightly or wrongly was perceived as being an outsider hostile to that establishment. Personally I see him as an opportunistic con man who saw a chance and took it, but it doesn't matter. The chance was there to be taken.

Edit: continuing with the fire metaphor: the roof collapsed in 2008 at the tail end of the Bush II administration. Obama sort of noticed and walked up and peed on it. The pee sizzled and steamed for a second and the flames shot higher.

Re: That sinking feeling

#116

Post by jlavine »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #98
jlavine wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The promises of Parliament and the will of the people regarding Brexit were about as clear as it gets in any democracy. Parliament voted to have the referendum. The referendum was simply and clearly expressed (though not at all detailed), each side had months to state their case, and the results were uncontroversial. Parliament followed the referendum with a vote to trigger Article 50. Subsequent elections resulted i…

>> To reverse course now - or to just keep having a referendum or revotes until the "right" result is achieved - would express total contempt and disregard for democracy itself. Ah, yes. There is no democratic way to overturn a democratically taken decision. And it is the peple who are sovereign, not Parliament. That's how the story goes. Many UK citizens who voted Remain have a poor understanding of the procedures o…

I certainly wasn't advocating for any sovereignty of the people outside of or above Parliament. The point is that Parliamentary elections and Parliamentary votes have aligned with the pro-Brexit result of the referendum.

Parliament voted to trigger article 50, and subsequent elections (still very recent) resulted in a pro-Brexit government.

The only democratic way now for Parliament to overturn the democratic decision on Brexit would be for a party to run on an anti-Brexit platform and win the next elections, then take a vote to reverse course. But, to repeat, there just were elections, this didn't happen, and nothing fundamentally new has happened since the elections that would lead to any change if elections were held again now.

Re: That sinking feeling

#117

Post by nopriorarrests »

wilsonnb2 wrote: post #114
api wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think some of them know that. Would it really be any better if they'd not rioted in the voting booth? If anything the trends that are destroying the American working and middle class are accelerating. They have nothing to lose that wouldn't be lost anyway. You're totally right that the result will just make them angrier and the cycle will repeat. This is how civilizations fall. If liberals want to do anything about…

> If liberals want to do anything about it they need to start actually giving a damn about America's poor and rapidly shrinking middle class in spite of the fact that they hold "backward and primitive" religious beliefs and are behind the times on social issues. Hillary focused so much on the shrinking middle class and the poor during the 2016 election - I can't believe that anyone who has actually read her policy su…

Before diving into into policy details, you need to consider the bigger picture. Hillary was promising, generally speaking, third term of Obama.

He actually endorsed her, and there was little disagreement between the two.

If people were unhappy about two Obama terms (and it seems they were, in large enough numbers), it was a losing proposition from the start, and details about prescription drugs and tax cuts for small businesses just didn't mattered.

Re: That sinking feeling

#118

Post by mcphage »

api wrote: post #80
mcphage wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've spoken to people who are cheering for these kinds of effects. An actual quote: "I hope Trump does as much damage as possible." And he will—to the people that voted for him. Not to the rich pushing globalization; they're going to make out quite well from him. So on one hand, I do understand the desire for boat-rocking—but when the form they chose was a game of Russian Roulette against themselves, my sympathy ra…

I think some of them know that. Would it really be any better if they'd not rioted in the voting booth? If anything the trends that are destroying the American working and middle class are accelerating. They have nothing to lose that wouldn't be lost anyway. You're totally right that the result will just make them angrier and the cycle will repeat. This is how civilizations fall. If liberals want to do anything about…

> If liberals want to do anything about it they need to start actually giving a damn about America's poor and rapidly shrinking middle class in spite of the fact that they hold "backward and primitive" religious beliefs and are behind the times on social issues.

I'm not sure why you think they don't. Personal bankruptcies dropped by half since the ACA passed, and health care costs were one of the leading causes of personal bankruptcy. Who passed the ACA, despite the enormous cost in political capital? The Democrats. Seriously, they lost tons of seats in Congress over the ACA, despite it being a good law, that has helped millions of people.

So yes, I do have sympathy to the American poor & working class. But when they burn the party that tries to help them, and pushed the party that's trying to hurt them to control over the entire government... Honest question: how can the Democrats help them? What political capital do they have left that those same people you're complaining the Democrats don't help, have shut the Democrats out of power across the entire country?

Re: That sinking feeling

#119

Post by jlavine »

BerislavLopac wrote: post #113
jlavine wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The promises of Parliament and the will of the people regarding Brexit were about as clear as it gets in any democracy. Parliament voted to have the referendum. The referendum was simply and clearly expressed (though not at all detailed), each side had months to state their case, and the results were uncontroversial. Parliament followed the referendum with a vote to trigger Article 50. Subsequent elections resulted i…

> each side had months to state their case With one side directly and openly lying, and breaking funding laws in the process. > and the results were uncontroversial Anything BUT controversial.

>> each side had months to state their case

> With one side directly and openly lying, and breaking funding laws in the process.

Both sides lied and, even more so, misled, and the Remain side had the bullhorn of the government and media on their side. Such lying and misleading happens in every vote everywhere. The premise of democracy is that, with a free press and open debate, voters are capable of sorting through competing claims and deciding. The Brexit debate was as free and fair as it has ever gotten anywhere.

>> and the results were uncontroversial

> Anything BUT controversial.

I've heard universal consensus that the referendum votes were collected and counted fairly. The implications are what have been controversial, not the results of the referendum itself.

Re: That sinking feeling

#120

Post by lmm »

BerislavLopac wrote: post #112
lmm wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But let's say the 48% that voted to remain in the EU had grown to say 55% that didn't like the sound of the Brexit deal being hashed out and would prefer the status quo. Would it be reasonable for our politicians to try and use the levers of government to reverse course to represent the new will of the people? You can't keep asking the people until they give the answer you want and then seize on that. Holding anoth…

> his party is duty-bound to implement its results And what are the results? To leave with no deal? In any case it is NOT legally bound. But it acts as it was.

> And what are the results? To leave with no deal?

To leave the European Union one way or another, since that was the question they asked and the answer they got. With whatever deal they believe best for the country and its people, which may or may not end up being no deal.

> In any case it is NOT legally bound. But it acts as it was.

The government's legal obligations come from its duty to the people, not the other way around.

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