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The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

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Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#111

Post by jeromenerf »

DannyBee wrote: post #53

I can't think of any reason to acclimatize them this way instead of kiln drying/vaporizing them (depending) to roughly the right moisture content and waiting for 1% change (instead of kiln drying them to 0, or waiting forever for completely green wood) There are studies going back to the 70's by the forestry service (and others) showing there is no change in mechanical properties of pine/fir from these drying schedul…

> Waiting years seems like a pointless waste of time.

They have a long running stock. They are not wasting time anymore, they may be wasting storage though.

Something could be said about the stock fire risk exposure, but hey, they are the firemen after all.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#112

Post by ssdd »

legitster wrote: post #2

If you get a chance to visit a Smokejumper base, I highly recommend it. One of the things you learn is that everyone on the team is required to make all of their own equipment by hand. So all of these highly trained, ex-military guys spend days on end doing nothing but sewing clothes and packing parachutes. The reasons described: - Cheaper than contracting out everything - They have a better idea of the exact specifi…

Situation here is of real world which is different from software world. Real world equipment can degrade/develop faults after use so its important to inspect them before each job(especially when risk associated are very high) which is possible only when person is familiar with equipment construction and building things yourself is the best way to get familiar with its mechanics.Whereas in software world, things don't degrade with use and we have option to automate inspection cheaply.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#113

Post by fencepost »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #56
Retric wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fiberglass is a terrible choice for these ladders. Most places use Aluminum or steel but that has conductivity issues with the amount of overhead powerlines in SF. They can be coated to reduce conductivity but that has other issues. http://lacountyfirefighters.org/items/Ground_Ladders_by_John... 3. May chip and crack with impact forces. 4. May suddenly crack and fail when overloaded. 5. Can burn when exposed to flame…

I find it interesting that they list "Can be exposed to heat and flame and retain strength" as a property of wooden ladders, but "Can burn when exposed to flame" as a property of fiberglass ladders.

Wood burns, but doesn't burst into flame with heat and stress. Do fiberglass ladders start to separate into fibers and epoxy under stress conditions, and is that very fine material prone to rapid ignition?

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#114

Post by gascan »

mkhalil wrote: post #67
Retric wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They could buy wooden ladders Can you point me to someplace selling 50' wooden ladders appropriate for firefighting?

For the right money, you can find the right ladder. It's not going to be cheap though, because you have to age the wood. I wonder if there is a way to age the wood to SF humidity/climate faster than real time. Just feels like there has to be.

Hell, for the right money your in house staff might make the right ladder for you! ... wait.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#115

Post by 8_hours_ago »

xienze wrote: post #36
cesarb wrote: post #19

> There's a city-specific reason why San Francisco has stuck with wood rather than swap over to metals, and the answer lies in looking up. The high-voltage cables and wires that guide the city's (oft-maligned) public transport system Muni, and trolley cars crisscross above nearly every street, mean that ladders made of conductive elements are generally just too dangerous to use. I wonder how it's done in European cit…

Fiberglass, probably. Which is what SF should be doing.

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/SAN-FRANCISCO-Firefig...

"[wood ladders] don't conduct electricity like aluminum or wet fiberglass ladders do."

"'Aluminum or fiberglass, when it gets too hot, it gets soft; it will actually fold over without any warning,' he said. 'Wood takes hours to fail completely -- enough time for a firefighter to see it burning and get off it.'"

"Once an aluminum or fiberglass ladder cracks, it usually has to be replaced. Wooden ones can always be repaired, he said."

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#116

Post by dsfyu404ed »

reaperducer wrote: post #84
jdietrich wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several manufacturers offer NFPA 1931 compliant fiberglass fire ladders. When used with a suitable resin, fiberglass has significantly better resistance to heat and flame. Fiberglass and wood are both prone to sudden failure due to crack propagation, but in both cases that risk is mitigated by regular inspection.

When used with a suitable resin, fiberglass has significantly better resistance to heat and flame. And how's the price compared with wood?

I can't imagine it's not better than wood ladders made in a low volume specialty shop in SF

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#117

Post by charonn0 »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #6
mylons wrote: post #4

artisanal ladders

x2. This seems like a case where there probably exists better options but the cost and friction of switching is too high. As long as the money's still coming there's no reason to look for alternatives though, especially when looking for alternatives would involve doing battle with a union over the jobs the alternatives would eliminate. Does SF really have that many more overhead power lines than other cities to warra…

SF really does have a lot of overhead power lines. e.g. this is pretty typical: https://i.imgur.com/j5v35QY.jpg

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#118

Post by tlb »

jdietrich wrote: post #63
Retric wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They could buy wooden ladders Can you point me to someplace selling 50' wooden ladders appropriate for firefighting?

http://alacoladder.com/fire-ladders/

We have 3 of their library ladders at home. They're nicely made.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#119

Post by hinkley »

_bxg1 wrote: post #102
legitster wrote: post #2

If you get a chance to visit a Smokejumper base, I highly recommend it. One of the things you learn is that everyone on the team is required to make all of their own equipment by hand. So all of these highly trained, ex-military guys spend days on end doing nothing but sewing clothes and packing parachutes. The reasons described: - Cheaper than contracting out everything - They have a better idea of the exact specifi…

My takeaway is that there are benefits to in-housing your own tools, not that everybody should. There's also a middle-ground available in the software industry: reading the code of the open-source tools you use. You can understand how your tools work without rebuilding them from scratch. Also, if you're using open-source (which most people do these days), the "cheaper" argument doesn't apply.

Those smoke jumpers aren’t making their own nuts and bolts, ropes, cloth, or felling their own trees. They’re making tools by assembly. Many of us work the same way.

From what I understand every master craftsman has a small quantity of tools they either made themselves or at least modified to purpose. Tools with bits added on or ground off (eg, wrenches ground thin for tight spots, or magnetized).

I class jigs as a separate category but I have no handy parallel for software.

Re: The San Franciso Fire Department makes its own wooden ladders by hand

#120

Post by exDM69 »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #99
mkhalil wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the right money, you can find the right ladder. It's not going to be cheap though, because you have to age the wood. I wonder if there is a way to age the wood to SF humidity/climate faster than real time. Just feels like there has to be.

You can use a kiln, which is how most timber is dried these days. If you're feeling bored, the Wikipedia article on wood drying is very comprehensive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_drying

Kiln drying doesn't produce ready to use lumber for fine woodworking or demanding applications. It's fine for construction material but needs additional seasoning and acclimatization in the environment it's going to be used in if it's to be used for anything else.

Fast drying will also introduce stress and warping to the wood. It would not work when long straight and thick material is needed.

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