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Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

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Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#111
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very misguided view of things. Aggression will help you fight for higher wages for yourself more often than if you weren't as aggressive. Anxiety will drive you towards actions that will decrease your anxiety, and those actions will generally be useful for you and sometimes the people employing you. I think you're not really in touch and being honest with yourself if you don't think both aggression and anxie…

To piggy back with you on to this point -- I see your grandparent may have something I've noticed is a common misconception, not just in the analysis of the value of human traits, but also in the analysis of modules in software, and other engineering projects. This misconception boils down to believing that just because a trait/emotion/module is not being used for the "reason" it was originally intended (scare quotes…

Or, what is usable/unusable or good/bad anyway? Fear may be undesirable, and aggression has major shortcomings, but the point is moot. They are here to stay, and they will be both desirable and undesirable at some point. Trying to assess the utility of something as fleeting as emotions is a silly thing to do, IMO.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very misguided view of things. Aggression will help you fight for higher wages for yourself more often than if you weren't as aggressive. Anxiety will drive you towards actions that will decrease your anxiety, and those actions will generally be useful for you and sometimes the people employing you. I think you're not really in touch and being honest with yourself if you don't think both aggression and anxie…

No, it won't. Anxiety lasts long after the actions have been made and the initial threat eliminated because a lot of people with anxiety disorders will tend to ruminate on their actions and possibly even catastrophize about them, creating to a whole different kind of anxiety that are at times unactionable. This is how people end up with PTSD. I've been trying very hard to break out of this cycle and can tell you firs…

Ultimately, your genes don't care about your happiness or anxiety. They are driven for you to be reproductively successful.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diplomacy gets you promoted. Discipline and focus make you better at interviewing when you shop around. Aggression rarely interacts with earning potential in a positive way.

> Diplomacy gets you promoted That's an interesting viewpoint, usually coming from people who believe that their world is governed by fairness. I'm not sure that's reflected in reality.

Getting your management chain to like you isn’t the same as being good at your job. It’s not fair. But it also isn’t aggression.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found your comment quite enlightning, and I thought it ended well with an open-ended "What is the best socioeconomic system depends on the circumstances." But you then pick out a specific socioeconomic system as "probably the best" without specifying those circumstances - unless you mean "long term survival" to be those circumstances? If so, survival of what? Village/tribe systems? The problem seems circular, put t…

I did specify it "long term survival purposes". Maybe I should have been more specific. In a environment where survival is uncertain survival values and system that maximizes survival is the best. Innovation and individuality succeed in a systems where basics are covered and system can be trusted to work. Example of wrong system: preppers with single family bunkers loaded with weapons and food. If the society collaps…

I used to watch 'doomsday preppers' the TV show, and I always found the differences between the community preppers and the individual preppers really interesting. The people in the community-based ones always seemed more sane to me, haha!

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#115
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it won't. Anxiety lasts long after the actions have been made and the initial threat eliminated because a lot of people with anxiety disorders will tend to ruminate on their actions and possibly even catastrophize about them, creating to a whole different kind of anxiety that are at times unactionable. This is how people end up with PTSD. I've been trying very hard to break out of this cycle and can tell you firs…

Ultimately, your genes don't care about your happiness or anxiety. They are driven for you to be reproductively successful.

[deleted]

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#116

> Everyone jealously scrutinised everybody else all the time – something easy to do when all social life was conducted in a public space. They took careful note of what others ate, what others owned, what others received or gave as gifts, and whether or not they were sufficiently generous in return. This was typical small village behavior in Nordics less than 100 years ago. When your survival depends on the village c…

> What is the best socioeconomic system depends on the circumstances.

Yes, just as life must bend to the contours of the environment it inhabits or otherwise perish, and there are a lot of permutations to the environment so life has evolved in so many ways, the best socioeconomic system is the one that serves the unique needs of a population. Whether it's encouraging social cohesion, resource sharing, trade, resource management, religion etc. it needs to be considerate of the people it binds.

The right tool for the job.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#117
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes they do. Perhaps the insulting was ritual in the sense that an airport check-in person asks if you packed your own bag today. They're listening to the tone of your reply rather than the words. Similarly, if the insulters of the successful hunter are truly envious then there will be a different tone to their insults. Then a problem is exposed. Note that this ritual isn't encouraging envy (which is a harmful emotio…

> Perhaps the insulting was ritual in the sense that an airport check-in person asks if you packed your own bag today. They're listening to the tone of your reply rather than the words. Are you sure that's not just checking to see if honest innocent victims might have been conned by a criminal?

Good point. Tone + words.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#118

Yes, I believe all of our emotions probably serve some evolutionary purpose. Does that mean they're useful in modern society? Not necessarily. Being anxious might have helped my ancestors prepare for unexpected famines. Being aggressive might have helped them lock down the resources they needed to survive. Do those emotions help me as an adult software engineer in Houston? Heck no. Anxiety and aggression just get in…

Your comment reminded me saying:

Hard times create strong men, Strong men create good times, Good times create weak men, Weak men create hard times.

Anxiety makes you consider consequences of your choices and take action based on it. Aggression helps you fight for what you think is important.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Better in what way? Better in the way that western civilization (with America leading the way) has been built on hierarchies. People in the States don't even realize how good they have it there because of this fact alone. Many egalitarian models have been attempted elsewhere and failed terribly only leading to mass deaths or eating out of the garbage can as is the case in Venezuela. Majority of the attempts at egal…

What makes you think the problems of immigration are not just Trumped up (heh) to distract from the much bigger problem that is the very hierarchy and filthy-rich class (that your president represents) of people that has steadily been fucking over the lower- and middle class, and reduced much of your country to a pretty shit place for the latter compared to more socialism-inspired countries? Scapegoating is an age-ol…

"What makes you think the problems of immigration are not just Trumped up (heh) " - what do you mean? Certainly most people who own houses in the suburbs have been aware for many years that some of the problems with illegal immigration are making for an uneven playing field for small business and average workers. I'm not sure if city living folks are as exposed to the business dealings in the same way. In what ways "very hierarchy and filthy-rich class... of people that has steadily been fucking over the lower- and middle class," In what ways do you mean? My only guess is you mean the wealthy have convinced both democrats and republicans for years to avoid minimum wage increases that match living wages?

"filthy-rich class (that your president represents)" - If you mean he represents the rich because he used similar methods to get rich in the past, okay - like a token symbol? IF you mean he represents them in his current government role, I think you are wrong. I think many of his policies are very contradictory to what the wealthy wanted. From replacing O-care to the illegal immigration enforcement, these issues are things most of the wealthy have been against from what I understand.

Scapegoating as a tactic for either side is annoying.

When you say "evidence that immigration is terrible", please understand some in the US are rallying for complete open borders, most are saying legal immigration is not terrible, it's good for the country, and we want the process to be better. A small few are against immigration, however it appears that certain media outlets and those who want to change the course of democrat vs republican want people to think that enforcing the laws that have been on the books for years means people are evil, racist, and want no one to enter the country.

Both sides are saying different things about the same thing. It appears the republicans / conservatives are listening the to media and social justice warriors, hearing what they are saying.

Stronger elements of socialism? Europe style? What do you mean? Work or don't work, we've tried more and less feed stamps, rent vouchers, healthcare things for the whole country and state by state these things have varied and swung a bit one way and then the other. So yes there is a lot in between.

I don't think most of those things are going to make much difference with the rich vs poor actually. I do envy some of the programs I have read about in the UK and other countries that are close, but the populations here are very different, and country wide things are major.

One of the things that actually is working to put pressure on wealthy to put more money in the pockets of the lower and middle class is limiting the amount of readily available people who will work and live illegally.

You say "your president" and then later say "we should go for" - so I am confused as to whether you are outside the US or in it.

There are many pieces to these complex issues, what works in Detroit is not going to work in Burbank. Scapegoating a person or class you don't like is not helping to put facts on the table, just appealing to emotions and encouraging others to buy into the group feels.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#120
post #103
post #57

Also known as the Crab Effect, where the other crabs in a bucket will pull an escaping crab down if he tries to escape - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality There is a lot of this in the West too, although to a lesser degree and in a less open way. Its one of those ancient behaviors and systems of values that we keep applying today that don't make much sense anymore. We don't live in small villages anymore,…

Likening it to crab buckets misses a key point: That "status" has value, and is transferable. Pulling a "human crab" isn't a purely destructive act, as it prevents a peer from gaining status and power that could be dangerous to the one pulling down. Even among crabs (where the wikipedia page doesn't provide source to back up its claims as to the crab's intent), pulling another crab down creates a stepping stone oppor…

>gaining status and power that could be dangerous to the one pulling down

Or it could be beneficial. It goes both ways. Putting a talented person in the position to succeed can create enormous value for a lot of people, not just themself.

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