Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece • Hacker News Board

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#111

Post by dgut » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 3:04 PM UTC

russellbeattie wrote: post #90

dgut wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's irrelevant what Washington or anybody else said. The common name for the North and South American landmasses is America (note: not Americas). The land between Canada and Mexico has no more rights to that name than the rest of the continent (or continents, depending on what model you prefer). Abroad, Hollywood has popularized the use of "American" to refer to citizens of the USA. Also, most languages don't have a…

The quote isn't irrelevant to the comment I was responding to, it was an example of its usage hundreds of years ago, loooong before Hollywood. Like I said above, it's a historical artifact, not some brazen attempt at linguistic hegemony. (Sorry, but the Americas is what the continents are called normally - in English at least - did you just make up a new rule? There's even a Wikipedia entry: https://en.m.wikipedia.or…

Its usage hundreds of years ago inside the US, yes. That's a pretty irrelevant argument for the rest of the remaining countries that are part of America, isn't it?

No, the continent(s) have traditionally been called America. A look at Google Ngram Viewer shows that Americas has hardly been used. It's a recent phenomenon, probably a result of the US hijacking "America". Even I feel sometimes compelled to call it "Americas" in Europe because it has become a given that US=America.

Not sure about the literature of the US, but in Latin American literature, writers have generally referred to the continent(s) as America, e.g http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/marti/America.htm

The original map by Waldseemüller has "America" written on it: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/db/Wa...

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#112

Post by cafard » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 3:41 PM UTC

dgut wrote: post #71

russellbeattie wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The terms America and Americans have been used for hundreds of years, not just the last decade or two. I've had this same conversation with Mexicans and people from South America. The U.S. was the first independent country in the Americas recognized by foreign countries and remained the only one for many years. The term American had been used by the British for years to refer to the colonies, and was adopted by the c…

It's irrelevant what Washington or anybody else said. The common name for the North and South American landmasses is America (note: not Americas). The land between Canada and Mexico has no more rights to that name than the rest of the continent (or continents, depending on what model you prefer). Abroad, Hollywood has popularized the use of "American" to refer to citizens of the USA. Also, most languages don't have a…

It may be irrelevant what anybody said, but it is not irrelevant what lots and lots of people said. For large chunks of the world, "Americans" meant "citizens or residents of the United States of America", long before Hollywood took its first reel of film.

> It's no different than if the most powerful European country were to call themselves Europeans alone.

Assuming always that it had established itself as the Federal Republic of Europe or some such before anybody else claimed the name.

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#113

Post by cafard » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 3:49 PM UTC

conmarap wrote: post #83

chadash wrote: post #6

This is pay-walled, but here's a summary: The country we now call "Macedonia" (i.e. The Republic of Macedonia) was formed in 1991 after Yugoslavia broke up. Greece didn't like the name, because "Macedonia" was already the name of a large region in Northern Greece. This would be similar to a region of Quebec bordering the US breaking away from Canada and calling itself Maine. Some Greeks apparently felt that the Repub…

It doesn't only imply territorial claims over Greece's region, but also the history of the ancient Greek Macedonia, Alexander the great and so forth, which is clearly part of the Hellenic history. Besides publishing official maps that depicted the region of Thessaloniki as a region of their country that was occupied by Greece, they also bluntly used Greek symbols, texts and even antiquities to further their propagand…

I have often wondered what Demosthenes would have thought of this. The Hellenes of the Philip's and Alexander's day were not fond of Macedonia, and (if I recall correctly) thought them more barbarian than not.

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#114

Post by dguts » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 5:31 PM UTC

dgut wrote: post #111

russellbeattie wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quote isn't irrelevant to the comment I was responding to, it was an example of its usage hundreds of years ago, loooong before Hollywood. Like I said above, it's a historical artifact, not some brazen attempt at linguistic hegemony. (Sorry, but the Americas is what the continents are called normally - in English at least - did you just make up a new rule? There's even a Wikipedia entry: https://en.m.wikipedia.or…

Its usage hundreds of years ago inside the US, yes. That's a pretty irrelevant argument for the rest of the remaining countries that are part of America, isn't it? No, the continent(s) have traditionally been called America. A look at Google Ngram Viewer shows that Americas has hardly been used. It's a recent phenomenon, probably a result of the US hijacking "America". Even I feel sometimes compelled to call it "Amer…

ugh

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#115

Post by dotancohen » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 8:19 PM UTC

toasterlovin wrote: post #108

Keyframe wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm saying is that I'm not convinced modern greeks are the same as those 2500 years ago. Lots of things happened, people moved, shuffled, ottoman empire was there for 500+ years, etc. In same way, I'm not convinced Macedonia vas vacated, completely void of people, and settled by slavs ezclusively.

I don’t know about Greece specifically, but the modern population of Italy are descendants of Italians from Roman times. There has been no population turnover to speak of. I would expect the situation in Greece to be similar; I’m not aware of any historical instances of wholesale genocide and migration there...

Then you should go look at a modern Turk standing next to a modern Greek. They were considered the same people before WWI, and have little diverged since.

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#116

Post by toasterlovin » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 9:28 PM UTC

dotancohen wrote: post #115

toasterlovin wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know about Greece specifically, but the modern population of Italy are descendants of Italians from Roman times. There has been no population turnover to speak of. I would expect the situation in Greece to be similar; I’m not aware of any historical instances of wholesale genocide and migration there...

Then you should go look at a modern Turk standing next to a modern Greek. They were considered the same people before WWI, and have little diverged since.

Sorry, I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

Re: Macedonia Agrees to Change Its Name to End Bitter Dispute with Greece

#117

Post by conmarap » Wed, Jun 20, 2018, 2:00 PM UTC

dotancohen wrote: post #115

toasterlovin wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know about Greece specifically, but the modern population of Italy are descendants of Italians from Roman times. There has been no population turnover to speak of. I would expect the situation in Greece to be similar; I’m not aware of any historical instances of wholesale genocide and migration there...

Then you should go look at a modern Turk standing next to a modern Greek. They were considered the same people before WWI, and have little diverged since.

> and have little diverged since

You clearly know nothing about the differences between the two people. Turks are very different from Greeks on even the level of "looks," let alone culture.