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The Overprotected American Child

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Re: The Overprotected American Child

#111

Post by drdeadringer »

aphextron wrote: post #25

You can always tell when someone grew up like this. They are always afraid of doing anything that might even remotely be considered outside the box. They lack that ability and drive to find things out for themselves, and instead rely on others for help and guidance to a fault. Professional occupations are full of these people who were coddled from birth, through college, and straight into a high paying job with zero…

I feel like there is a fine line between people like this and people who insist that documentation exists.

For me, maybe I know what the procedure is because I've done it a thousand times but it's still not written down step by step so what I know in my head is worthless once I leave the job for whatever reason [death, better deal, retirement, &c].

On the other hand, the person doing the job could just be sub-par. I'm not sure what there can be done about that.

Re: The Overprotected American Child

#112

Post by 5DFractalTetris »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #109
lovich wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd think that's more a cause of the blame that's put on people for going outside of their given rules. I'm sure if the student attempted to fix that machine and even if they didn't break it more, they'd be in a world of shit. You can't simultaneously expect people to be self sufficient and then punish them heavily if they try to be and anything goes wrong.

In the physical sciences you are simply expected to troubleshoot and perform basic maintenance on lab equipment. No, I wouldn't know where the helplessness amongst today's undergraduates comes from. Is it an unquestioning adherence to "the rules" that was beaten into them in school, or is it a desire to deflect potential liability? No idea!

Pre-undergraduate education is nothing like the University level. Some of the students have never been in a laboratory, some of them didn't have user-serviceable cars or bicycles or computers, even those who "have coded" might not really "be programming," and authority figures who could fix everything almost magically basically were their lives for 18 years. That's before you examine eccentricities and differences in upbringing. And, before addressing the "not not totalitarian" practice of 'Zero Tolerance' and its sizable human cost. As the other user said, that adds up. I wouldn't be surprised if kids doing gun violence in schools are reacting to a false image of society which they're getting from people for whom tardiness results in detention.

I still can't weld like some of my friends. They're so brilliant, it'd take me years to catch up.

Anyway: if you really want to sell students on becoming the complete Scientific Humanist Who Delicately Breaks Rules AND Can Fix Anything, which you seem to fancy, start off the laboratories with "LSD Synthesis: from Ergot to Your Homemade Blotter Art" and then break the thermal cycler before the next lab, with the phosphorescence plasmids.

And, yes, in the U.S. and elsewhere, I would expect some (perhaps milder than I imagine) difficulties with that; and, no, I don't really condone drug use but I think you can see where I'm coming from with this reasoning.

Re: The Overprotected American Child

#113

Post by lovich »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #109
lovich wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd think that's more a cause of the blame that's put on people for going outside of their given rules. I'm sure if the student attempted to fix that machine and even if they didn't break it more, they'd be in a world of shit. You can't simultaneously expect people to be self sufficient and then punish them heavily if they try to be and anything goes wrong.

In the physical sciences you are simply expected to troubleshoot and perform basic maintenance on lab equipment. No, I wouldn't know where the helplessness amongst today's undergraduates comes from. Is it an unquestioning adherence to "the rules" that was beaten into them in school, or is it a desire to deflect potential liability? No idea!

Even when I was in high school about 15 years ago, we were always punished for violating any procedures or rules. Zero tolerance policies weren't just for violent actions but for everything. Our society does not tolerate children who disobey authority and that doesn't magically switch off when we kick them off to college

Re: The Overprotected American Child

#114

Post by seandougall »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #94
civilitty wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the eggs that are banned, the FDA bans the practice of putting inedible objects fully encased in edible things in general. I loved me my Kinder Surprise when I was a kid but I don't think that's an unreasonable restriction when it comes to products marketed towards children (I don't know if it applies across the board or only to things marketed at children). Kinder has introduced an American version now wher…

How do tiered cakes work in USA? Wedding cakes, for example, in UK often have hidden 'pillars' inside the lower tiers to provide structural strength. Perhaps there's a size limit on embedded non-edible components.

That happens here too, but a lot of the stricter regulations apply only to prepackaged foods; I expect this is one of those.

King cakes are another example — commonly enjoyed despite how many baby Jesuses have been swallowed or choked on.

Re: The Overprotected American Child

#115

Post by closeparen »

taeric wrote: post #81
closeparen wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither of the things I mentioned are a genuine improvement to anyone’s situation, yet they would fix this metric. It’s great that the lowest end of the income distribution still has enough resources to have children. It would help no one to reduce productivity. The metric is probably not the right way of thinking about this problem.

They wouldn't, was my point. One actively works against it through feedback systems. Having kids typically lowers your income. The other isn't actually doable. Is the metric perfect? No. But neither is attacking it in ways that it can't be attacked. Do you have alternatives? What are they?

Food security, nutrition, housing stability, rent burden, medical and dental care, K12 institutions that meet standards, college affordability, etc. Essentially anything focused on objective conditions instead of relative positioning.

The upper half of a country’s income distribution can absolutely be more or less productive compared to another time or another place. How would you go about it? Defunding education and research and starting a trade war would be great first steps.

Re: The Overprotected American Child

#116

Post by astura »

Pinckney wrote: post #11

As a counterpoint, Canada (and presumably the US too) has seen a dramatic decrease in unintentional injury mortality among children over the last 70 years. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28026710

Unintentional injury includes car crashes which have been getting less deadly thanks to increasing safety standards, seat belt laws, car seat laws, graduated licensing, stiffer penalties for DUI (as well as actual enforcement). You're also talking about increasing safety standards on consumer products and packaging leading to less injuries.

Re: The Overprotected American Child

#117

Post by astura »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #94
civilitty wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the eggs that are banned, the FDA bans the practice of putting inedible objects fully encased in edible things in general. I loved me my Kinder Surprise when I was a kid but I don't think that's an unreasonable restriction when it comes to products marketed towards children (I don't know if it applies across the board or only to things marketed at children). Kinder has introduced an American version now wher…

How do tiered cakes work in USA? Wedding cakes, for example, in UK often have hidden 'pillars' inside the lower tiers to provide structural strength. Perhaps there's a size limit on embedded non-edible components.

Section 402(d)(1) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act is what regulates this. It says:

(1) has partially or completely imbedded therein any nonnutritive object, except that this subparagraph shall not apply in the case of any nonnutritive object if, in the judgment of the Secretary as provided by regulations, such object is of practical functional value to the confectionery product and would not render the product injurious or hazardous to health

Since hidden pillars are neither hazardous to anyone's health and also provide functional value, seems like they'd be just fine.

Re: The Overprotected American Child

#118

Post by taeric »

closeparen wrote: post #115
taeric wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They wouldn't, was my point. One actively works against it through feedback systems. Having kids typically lowers your income. The other isn't actually doable. Is the metric perfect? No. But neither is attacking it in ways that it can't be attacked. Do you have alternatives? What are they?

Food security, nutrition, housing stability, rent burden, medical and dental care, K12 institutions that meet standards, college affordability, etc. Essentially anything focused on objective conditions instead of relative positioning. The upper half of a country’s income distribution can absolutely be more or less productive compared to another time or another place. How would you go about it? Defunding education and…

I would wager that all of those correlate so heavily to wealth bracket that it would be a wash. And a surprise for you.

That is, wealth is a proxy for all of those measures. And every attempt at fixing those measures has ended poorly. At best.

Re: The Overprotected American Child

#119

Post by closeparen »

taeric wrote: post #118
closeparen wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Food security, nutrition, housing stability, rent burden, medical and dental care, K12 institutions that meet standards, college affordability, etc. Essentially anything focused on objective conditions instead of relative positioning. The upper half of a country’s income distribution can absolutely be more or less productive compared to another time or another place. How would you go about it? Defunding education and…

I would wager that all of those correlate so heavily to wealth bracket that it would be a wash. And a surprise for you. That is, wealth is a proxy for all of those measures. And every attempt at fixing those measures has ended poorly. At best.

It looks like 8% of children are food insecure, for example. That’s awful but we’re also a lot further along than the 20% figure in TFA.
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