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As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

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Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#111

Post by jacques_chester »

lobster_johnson wrote: post #107
jacques_chester wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work for Pivotal, we directly compete with Red Hat. Look: they're Red Hat , I mean c'mon now. If you don't think they have great engineers then I'd hate to hear what you think of the rest of us. These websites are not usually intended for you or I. They're intended to get the interest of the cheque-signers. Enterprise software is a very particular world and it has its particular cadences and norms and approaches. R…

Hence my skepticism. Someone who doesn't know how to engage with engineers is someone I don't have any interest in engaging with, either.

The main repo is the 4th result on Google for me: https://github.com/openshift/origin. In 3rd position is the openshift.org website.

I feel like this one is really on you, not Red Hat.

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#112

Post by statusgraph »

ex3ndr wrote: post #60

Does anyone knows a very good CD for k8s? I found that only bitbucket deployments is a good one in terms of simplicity of managing deployments (just like Heroku). Most vendors forces me to use their crappy CI solution for doing CD. Why they want me to migrate to your (very limited) build system? I can pay you for a fancy dashboard, but please, allow me to use whatever i need to build my software. There are many optio…

We tried spinnaker and are now using Weave (https://www.weave.works/). It works pretty well, actually. In particular we like that it stores all state in a git repo which is automatically updated.

We have our own monitoring stack, though, so don't use the additional prometheus integrations

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#113

Post by hunter_n »

hermitdev wrote: post #94

I'm curious: how does containerization work for systems that utilize kernel-bypass? Is it even possible? I did a (admittedly short) search for kubernetes and kernel bypass, and the only thing that seem remotely relevant was [0], however it didn't indicate whether they work together. For background, I work for a Dark Pool Alternative Trading System, and we currently utilize kernel bypass for all of our networking usin…

I've not had direct experience with it but do recall Intel covering their work with DPDK and Core pinning. I think they got something like 96% line rate on 25GbE. - https://networkbuilders.intel.com/network-technologies/conta...

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#114

Post by manigandham »

lobster_johnson wrote: post #105
manigandham wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you expect that? Or use it that way? The clouds are IaaS, and Kubernetes is like a virtual human that creates resources using the same APIs you would. It's on K8S to keep track of what it's creating.

That's what I mean by "Kubernetes first". Why not use Kubernetes to declaratively define nodes, disks, load balancers, firewall rules, DNS rules...? If you look at Terraform, for example, it's just an "object store" (the state file) that you modify in order to "converge" your infrastructure. If you're already using Kubernetes via GKE or a similar IaaS, then of course Kubernetes has underlying primitives (GCE disks, G…

That's because Kubernetes isn't an infrastructure system, it's an application system. More PaaS than IaaS, so you're supposed to define what your app needs and let it do the work.

You don't specify a node but the CPU/RAM your application requires and let K8S scale up the cluster if necessary. Likewise, you specifiy the storage needed instead of managing disks, and set network policies to control load balancing and routing. If you want to live in Kubernetes only today, you can absolutely do that. Launch your cluster once and then use kubectl and yaml for the rest.

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#115

Post by puzzle »

coredog64 wrote: post #102
pathseeker wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the things you described as improvements are more complexity and layers of indirection. Kubernetes may be an attempt to improve on Borg but adding on a bunch of features and plugin architectures to solve more use cases isn't necessarily an improvement.

Is your assertion that k8s suffers from "second system syndrome" when compared to Borg?

Kubernetes is actually the third system. In-between, there's Omega. Yegge must have never set up a GSLB or GFE service to appreciate the extra stuff that Kubernetes features.

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#116

Post by sleepybrett »

vorpalhex wrote: post #21
daxfohl wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there's this from a fairly influential former googler: https://medium.com/@steve.yegge/honestly-i-cant-stand-k8s-48... It's a quick read, but to summarise: it's almost as complex as google's internal borg system but the benefit isn't even close (partially because nobody else has google problems). I can't down K8s personally, as I've never used it myself. But I wonder if there's the possibility of a system that's…

Kubernetes does suffer from complexity right now, but that also gives it it's flexibility. I think turnkey kubernetes solutions like Rancher will dominate for a lot of use cases, especially for individual devs and small teams that can't have a dedicated DevOps resource to manage kubernetes.

As someone who has been running kubernetes clusters for the last 1.5-2 years. It's quickly becoming boring (in a good way). I'm at a fairly large enterprise and we're running five clusters (two gke managed, which .. is limiting, three with our own bootstrap). I'd say we spend about 10%-20% of our time actively managing clusters (upgrades, troubleshooting.. some of that time is about maintaining some value adds like automatic log shipping.. that kind of thing), most of our work is writing value-adds, helping customers onboard and consulting with teams on how to best deploy and work with kubernetes (many teams at my company aren't really familiar with containerization).

Granted we run our own bootstrap (when we started none of the bootstraps running around we're ready, we started with a terraform/make implementation of hightower's hardway and we've just kept adding. We're thinking about revisiting the space again.

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#117

Post by emmelaich »

gerdesj wrote: post #58

How do you pronounce Kubernetes?

κυβερνητική (almost)

It's actually the same root word as cybernetics. Meaning governance. Hence tools named like Helm etc.

I believe it's the root of words like 'captain' too. Maybe even related to Caesar / Kaiser via Latin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetics#Etymology

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#118

Post by lobster_johnson »

jacques_chester wrote: post #111
lobster_johnson wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence my skepticism. Someone who doesn't know how to engage with engineers is someone I don't have any interest in engaging with, either.

The main repo is the 4th result on Google for me: https://github.com/openshift/origin . In 3rd position is the openshift.org website. I feel like this one is really on you, not Red Hat.

We were talking about openshift.com, though. I didn't realize there were more than one site. Since you're going there:

- I didn't even know it was called "OpenShift Origin"!

- I don't understand what the differentiation is between the various things called "OpenShift", from having visited the Google links briefly.

- Third Google hit (https://www.redhat.com/en/technologies/cloud-computing/opens...) does not even mention Origin anywhere, but describes it as "a container application platform that brings Docker and Kubernetes to the enterprise". With that copy, you already lost me. That IBM-type business site that makes my skin crawl.

- The Github site actually introduces it as "Enterprise Kubernetes for Developers", which... I don't even know what that means! What does "Enterprise Kubernetes" even mean? The actual readme's introduction ("a distribution of Kubernetes optimized for continuous application development and multi-tenant deployment") does make sense, and the readme itself is fine. However, still no explanation of what "Origin" is compared to other things named "OpenShift".

- Openshift.org (5th link on Google) is good. That's exactly the kind of site I'd want to see as a developer/CTO. However, still no explanation of "Origin". From Openshift.org it seems like Origin is the only product.

- I go back to openshift.com and click on "Products" out of curiosity, and it's clear that there's a bunch of other OpenShifts. What are they? Why should I care? The site isn't inviting me to find out, so I leave.

Why are there are so many sites? Github is one thing, but so far we have three, and none of them really give a cohesive story.

I understand that the marketing department is targeting different people, but do they realize that people google this stuff, and will likely end up on the wrong site, with no signposts to the right thing? The fuzzy messaging leaves the impression that the company is messy and disorganized, and also pretty lost in a fog of enterprise buzzwords.

Anyway, in my original comment, what I was seeking was Kubernetes a cloud service. After sniffing around on openshift.com, I suspect the product I want is called OpenShift Online, but I'm not actually sure. Because there's also something called OpenShift Container Platform, which is also Kubernetes, but apparently in the cloud of your choice? Unfortunately, the site doesn't explain what the relationship is between this and Origin, and of course there is no pricing for Container Platform, probably because it has the label "ENTERPRISE" next to it. Figures.

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#119

Post by shaklee3 »

anoncoward1234 wrote: post #100
shaklee3 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kops, kubeadm, rancher, kubespray all do what you want, but differently depending on your needs. What were you looking for?

EXACTLY

I don't see your point, but I should have clarified more:

Kops == AWS install Rancher == Easy small cluster on-prem or private cloud. GUI push-button setup kubeadm == CLI tool to set up a cluster manually with basic settings. Not very flexible, but can get a cluster working in minutes. kubespray == Ansible playbooks for setting up k8s cluster. The most powerful of the bunch, especially if you're familiar with ansible. This is the preferred way to run it in production I believe, along with customizations on top.

Re: As Kubernetes grows, a startup ecosystem develops in its wake

#120

Post by shaklee3 »

emmelaich wrote: post #117
gerdesj wrote: post #58

How do you pronounce Kubernetes?

κυβερνητική (almost) It's actually the same root word as cybernetics. Meaning governance. Hence tools named like Helm etc. I believe it's the root of words like 'captain' too. Maybe even related to Caesar / Kaiser via Latin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetics#Etymology

It means navigator in Greek.
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